Evacuating the front (development issue?)

MagnusN · Post by **MagnusN** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 1:45 pm

Hi,

I have played a few PBEM battles recently and I have found an issue that is worth discussing.

9000 of the Soviet airforces are grouped on their western front at the start of Barbarossa. Historically they were totally cought off-guard and were more or less massacred as you all know.

With some luck and skill the axis player will be able to "destroy about 6000 machines according to the battle reports on week one, which is historically quite right. However, as the soviet player, you are able to evacuate the remaining aircrafts in one single turn to let them start their long recovery and training program east of moscow. I find it HIGHLY unlikely and historically correct that they were able to do this, especially all the machines that were damaged.

Why not introduce the following:

If the soviet player moves their airgroups during the first (lets say) four weeks of the Barbarossa campaign, they will loose all planes that are damaged in that moving group.

Any comments on the issue or the suggestion?

Magnus N

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 11:14 pm

Originally posted by MagnusN:
Hi,

I have played a few PBEM battles recently and I have found an issue that is worth discussing.

9000 of the Soviet airforces are grouped on their western front at the start of Barbarossa. Historically they were totally cought off-guard and were more or less massacred as you all know.

With some luck and skill the axis player will be able to "destroy about 6000 machines according to the battle reports on week one, which is historically quite right. However, as the soviet player, you are able to evacuate the remaining aircrafts in one single turn to let them start their long recovery and training program east of moscow. I find it HIGHLY unlikely and historically correct that they were able to do this, especially all the machines that were damaged.

Why not introduce the following:

If the soviet player moves their airgroups during the first (lets say) four weeks of the Barbarossa campaign, they will loose all planes that are damaged in that moving group.

Any comments on the issue or the suggestion?

This is a tough issue. Technically, the Soviets could have withdrawn their entire Air Force to rebuild as all WiR players do now. They didn't withdraw, and they even tried some long range bombing according to someone here. We, with hindsight, know the futility of fighting the Luftwaffe with obsolete aircraft early on, when the Luftwaffe is strongest. Players now know the smart thing to do. How unrealistic it is, I'm not sure, but they *could* have done it historically. Its interesting, does anyone know of any discussion early on with Stalin about how to use the Red Air Force?

MagnusN · Post by **MagnusN** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 3:25 am

Ed, I agree with much of what you said. Maybe I didnt make my self clear enough though.

Least to say. the weeks following the invasion of Russia control was the least the russian high command had. Front reports never came in or came days after the actual happening making it almost impossible to coordinate and command, which makes an evacuation effort of this magnitude highly unlikely. However, a game is a game and the player have control from day one.

My suggestion is, as a historical penalty just as the army-plots randomly never take place,that evacuation is possible, but not the damaged machines. They are completely lost due to lack of coordination and control. I guess this would reflect the actual setting for the start of Barbarossa quite well.

Comments?

MN

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 3:35 pm

Originally posted by MagnusN:
Ed, I agree with much of what you said. Maybe I didnt make my self clear enough though.

Least to say. the weeks following the invasion of Russia control was the least the russian high command had. Front reports never came in or came days after the actual happening making it almost impossible to coordinate and command, which makes an evacuation effort of this magnitude highly unlikely. However, a game is a game and the player have control from day one.

My suggestion is, as a historical penalty just as the army-plots randomly never take place,that evacuation is possible, but not the damaged machines. They are completely lost due to lack of coordination and control. I guess this would reflect the actual setting for the start of Barbarossa quite well.

Ok, I'll put this on the issues list.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:47 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Ok, I'll put this on the issues list.

I agree about air transfer too. Another issue should be afv attrition for obsolete Soviet tanks.
Each time when Soviet tank division moves/plots one hex 10-20% of obsolete tanks should be lost. Altenative to this solution can be returning to the old original rule(though for both sides) when division with readiness lower than 20% loses 10-50% of its AFVs/arty(some of them return to the pool) independently from SL. This would be very historical because many sources point to loosing AFVs due to long forced marches even through friendly territory. Though this will be surely pro-Axis change.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 7:22 pm

Originally posted by MagnusN:
9000 of the Soviet airforces are grouped on their western front at the start of Barbarossa. Historically they were totally cought off-guard and were more or less massacred as you all know.

During first day of Barbarossa Luftwaffe destroyed 1200 Soviet planes 200 of which were shut down in air combat and 1000 on the ground. Second day was nearly as much successfull as first one, though Luftwaffe losses had been increased. After this Soviet losses on the ground were not that high, though almost 200 Soviet planes were shut down each day by Luftwaffe(according to German sources). Finaly, Luftwaffe reported ~4000 Soviet planes "destroyed"(this numbe certanly includes large amount of damaged planes) after first week of war, and 10.000 Soviet planes "destroyed" until the end of August. Unfortunatly I have no book under my hand to give exact numbers. Source name is "Second World War '39-'45" by Buttlar et al(group German generals).

With some luck and skill the axis player will be able to "destroy about 6000 machines according to the battle reports on week one, which is historically quite right.

With some luck and skill axis player can destroy(I mean destroy) nearly every single plane in HQs(7700 planes) with a first strike. This was surely beyond Luftwaffe possibilities.

MagnusN · Post by **MagnusN** » Thu Jan 10, 2002 11:55 pm

Originally posted by Mist:

With some luck and skill axis player can destroy(I mean destroy) nearly every single plane in HQs(7700 planes) with a first strike. This was surely beyond Luftwaffe possibilities.

Many good and relevant inputs to this discussion.

Managing to hit 7700 machines in the first round is fantastic. I have tried to play the first week over and over again as the German but never managed to destroy more than arround 6000. I threw in just about everything that flies and grandma too. Well...I guess I need some practice here <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> .

As a reply or rather a continuation on what "Mist" wrote about obsolete tanks. Im right now playing a great (analog) boardgame from The Gamers called Guderians BlitzKrieg 2ed, dealing with the final thrust against Moscow in 1941. The game simulates the tremendous loss of german material when the mud freezes (about 50% of the tanks became useless at the front and only 50% of those are recoverable as replacements). Is this reflected in WIR? I don't think so.

Magnus

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 12:43 am

The game does have loses of equipment, but only in 1 specific situation. Axis units, except Finns, moving in the 1941 blizzards will lose a random percentage of their equipment - all but squads I believe. This does not happen except in plots or moves. Otherwise, you are right and there is no loss, even though both sides should actually suffer severely from this. Actually though, I suppose breakdowns in general are represented, as the loss of readiness by moving results in fewer things being ready for battle, thus showing items that break down and become unavailable for a variety of reasons. It is very generic however, and there are no permanent losses from this.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 10:53 am

Originally posted by RickyB:
The game does have loses of equipment, but only in 1 specific situation. Axis units, except Finns, moving in the 1941 blizzards will lose a random percentage of their equipment - all but squads I believe.

Hmmm, the "old" rule Mist refers to is still there. Take a unit out of supply, with readiness below %20 and equipment losses begin. I have mentioned before that I believe this penalty should be higher, but not as high as the original version. In the original WIR, the losses were %50 of equipment when plotting out of supply. Move 3 squares out of supply and practically all your tanks were gone.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 3:34 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Hmmm, the "old" rule Mist refers to is still there. Take a unit out of supply, with readiness below %20 and equipment losses begin. I have mentioned before that I believe this penalty should be higher, but not as high as the original version. In the original WIR, the losses were %50 of equipment when plotting out of supply. Move 3 squares out of supply and practically all your tanks were gone.

IIRC equipment loss rule was applied to all units with readiness less than 20% independently on SL. Now I start to think that I am wrong. May be it was applied to OOS units independently on readiness?

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 3:49 pm

Originally posted by MagnusN:

Many good and relevant inputs to this discussion.

Managing to hit 7700 machines in the first round is fantastic. I have tried to play the first week over and over again as the German but never managed to destroy more than arround 6000. I threw in just about everything that flies and grandma too. Well...I guess I need some practice here <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> .
Magnus

Not much problems. Just try to free some(3-4) bomber groups for bombing Leningrad HQs. It often happens that bombers fly through those hundreeds if interceptors and strike air fields. Don't forget that you may send Italian and West front groups to fly air missions. This is very usefull in the beginning.
Oh, yes, you also can send Bf-110 to fly multiple missions! Do the following:
1) Fly mission with BF-110 as escort and bomber group as airfield strike. (Bf-110 bombs airfield too)
2) Fly air mission from other HQ
3) Return to first HQ with "used" Bf-110 group. It is avaliable now!!
4) when Bf-110 has no bomber group to escort - assign it to airfield strike mission and fly again!! Only after this it becomes totaly used.

very good tactical trick which makes Bf-110 the best killer in the WiR. Especialy when it has historical load and cannon ratings.

The same trick works extremely good with multiple interdiction against Soviet tanks.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 4:13 pm

Oh, yes, you also can send Bf-110 to fly multiple missions! Do the following:
1) Fly mission with BF-110 as escort and bomber group as airfield strike. (Bf-110 bombs airfield too)
2) Fly air mission from other HQ
3) Return to first HQ with "used" Bf-110 group. It is avaliable now!!
4) when Bf-110 has no bomber group to escort - assign it to airfield strike mission and fly again!! Only after this it becomes totaly used.

very good tactical trick which makes Bf-110 the best killer in the WiR. Especialy when it has historical load and cannon ratings.

The same trick works extremely good with multiple interdiction against Soviet tanks.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Also is true with the Fw-190f (not with FW-190A) so maybe all pure fighters-bombers can do it, ...Mist?

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 5:05 pm

Originally posted by Josan:

Also is true with the Fw-190f (not with FW-190A) so maybe all pure fighters-bombers can do it, ...Mist?

yes it is for all fighter-bombers, but Bf-110 is available from the very start, when Red Air Force is so weak.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mist ]</p>

czerpak · Post by **czerpak** » Fri Jan 11, 2002 5:10 pm

Originally posted by Josan:
Oh, yes, you also can send Bf-110 to fly multiple missions! Do the following:
1) Fly mission with BF-110 as escort and bomber group as airfield strike. (Bf-110 bombs airfield too)
2) Fly air mission from other HQ
3) Return to first HQ with "used" Bf-110 group. It is avaliable now!!
4) when Bf-110 has no bomber group to escort - assign it to airfield strike mission and fly again!! Only after this it becomes totaly used.

very good tactical trick which makes Bf-110 the best killer in the WiR. Especialy when it has historical load and cannon ratings.

The same trick works extremely good with multiple interdiction against Soviet tanks.

Also is true with the Fw-190f (not with FW-190A) so maybe all pure fighters-bombers can do it, ...Mist?[/QB][/QUOTE]

AFAIK all fighter-bombers can do this (the same for soviets)

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Jan 12, 2002 1:24 pm

Originally posted by czerpak:
AFAIK all fighter-bombers can do this (the same for soviets)

Yes, all FBs can do this.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Jan 12, 2002 1:28 pm

Originally posted by Mist:

IIRC equipment loss rule was applied to all units with readiness less than 20% independently on SL. Now I start to think that I am wrong. May be it was applied to OOS units independently on readiness?

My understanding is this equipment loss occurs for units that are out of supply and below 20% readiness. Units below 20% readiness but above SL0 are not affected.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sun Jan 13, 2002 11:33 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

My understanding is this equipment loss occurs for units that are out of supply and below 20% readiness. Units below 20% readiness but above SL0 are not affected.

yes, it happens now. I am talking about the old equipment loss rule for units at SL 0. Was it different from current rule? I think it was.
I have many sources pointing that units were losing a lot of equipment when doing extremely forced marches on friendly territory(for example Soviet mech. corpses during first week of war). So I think that units must lose equipment(partialy to pool) if they have readiness less than 20 independently on SL.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Jan 14, 2002 12:33 am

Originally posted by Mist:

yes, it happens now. I am talking about the old equipment loss rule for units at SL 0. Was it different from current rule? I think it was.

Yes, it was 50% losses every turn at SL0. Its lower than that now.

I have many sources pointing that units were losing a lot of equipment when doing extremely forced marches on friendly territory(for example Soviet mech. corpses during first week of war). So I think that units must lose equipment(partialy to pool) if they have readiness less than 20 independently on SL.

Good idea.