What is going on here?
Are we refighting WW2 over the OOBs? Are the smaller OOBs being swallowed up by the Germans in their OOB quest for lebensraum? Are the smaller OOBs having their OOB genetic structure altered by the introduction of German OOB "DNA"?
And if this isn't a flagrant case of Germanic glorification, then why aren't these issues being discussed in Paul Vebber's topic "Make OOB Comments Here"?
This is getting ridiculous. With the new version 2.0, the possibility of having 600 units in the game makes most of these Germanic OOB "requests" extremely problematic. I mean, now it will be possible to buy dozens of units of the same type. But if there were only a handful of a certain weapon produced (for instance, the Sturmtiger) the game can now be corrupted since a player can have dozens of them in his game. This makes no sense. And corrupting other nations' OOBs to make available these obscure and limited variants of German war production makes even less sense.
I advocate forcing players who wish to include these deviants from German mainstream war production alter their own OOBs to do this, rather than forcing their wishes upon the rest of us who don't.
Please keep the structure of the existing OOBs free from alteration by outside nationalities.
Some German units to add
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
I sort of agree with Victor, however, many people tremendously enjoy playing as Gerry, so I would assume that's where that's coming from. Myself, I don't want so many variants for one nation, that you can get every nut and bolt, tremendous advantage that such an army didn't have. It's something of the consequence of the game not having a strategic element, where storing up tremendous amounts of expensive units would hurt you.
Victor: If I recall, you're the Elefant man, right? You seem to gripe about people wanting to get rare units to abuse the system, and yet you talk about having nothing but Elefants. Seems you're a little guilty of your own condemnation, yes? I know you're adjusting your support (no mines etc) to somewhat make up for that, but who says these rare unit advocates aren't doing the same thing? In some games I've played, the Elefant was only available in late 43, so that if it got destroyed past that time, it would need to switch to something else. Your 'no mines' philosophy might adequately (I doubt it) make up for overstocking with a unit which was fairly rare, but it doesn't balance your offensives at all. The offensives are the most fun and difficult part of the game. Try doing offensives with more ordinary units and find out how fun it is. I recall someone once advocating playing only defensive missions by some sort of alteration technique. I pity that person, because though defensives can be fun, they definitely aren't the mettle tester that offensives can be (unless visibility is real poor).
I definitely agree that the Gustav doesn't belong in this game. We run into a problem here, which as I said before, would probably be rectified if there was a strategic system in place. There's the angle that you might want things relatively historic across the board, and then there's the thought that we might want every last bit of equipment, so that we can tell ourselves that this is how we would have managed the war econmoy of that nation's forces, and see what happens.
The danger I see in rare units being included, particularly the Gustav category, is that the AI might pick a slew of such ridiculous units. Can you inagine? Let's say the Gustav costs 2,000 points. Let's say you force over time gets large enough that when he assaults you, he can buy like six of these. What would the game be like? The AI would have no defense so to speak of, accept 6 guns which would swallow up the earth every 15 minutes.
BTW, Brent mentioned 15" shells. No way 15" shells compare to the Gustav, no way. The Allies didn't go on frantic air searches for the Gustav because it was just another 15" gun.
[This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited 06-23-2000).]
Victor: If I recall, you're the Elefant man, right? You seem to gripe about people wanting to get rare units to abuse the system, and yet you talk about having nothing but Elefants. Seems you're a little guilty of your own condemnation, yes? I know you're adjusting your support (no mines etc) to somewhat make up for that, but who says these rare unit advocates aren't doing the same thing? In some games I've played, the Elefant was only available in late 43, so that if it got destroyed past that time, it would need to switch to something else. Your 'no mines' philosophy might adequately (I doubt it) make up for overstocking with a unit which was fairly rare, but it doesn't balance your offensives at all. The offensives are the most fun and difficult part of the game. Try doing offensives with more ordinary units and find out how fun it is. I recall someone once advocating playing only defensive missions by some sort of alteration technique. I pity that person, because though defensives can be fun, they definitely aren't the mettle tester that offensives can be (unless visibility is real poor).
I definitely agree that the Gustav doesn't belong in this game. We run into a problem here, which as I said before, would probably be rectified if there was a strategic system in place. There's the angle that you might want things relatively historic across the board, and then there's the thought that we might want every last bit of equipment, so that we can tell ourselves that this is how we would have managed the war econmoy of that nation's forces, and see what happens.
The danger I see in rare units being included, particularly the Gustav category, is that the AI might pick a slew of such ridiculous units. Can you inagine? Let's say the Gustav costs 2,000 points. Let's say you force over time gets large enough that when he assaults you, he can buy like six of these. What would the game be like? The AI would have no defense so to speak of, accept 6 guns which would swallow up the earth every 15 minutes.
BTW, Brent mentioned 15" shells. No way 15" shells compare to the Gustav, no way. The Allies didn't go on frantic air searches for the Gustav because it was just another 15" gun.
[This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited 06-23-2000).]
What is going on here?
What is going on is some common since seggestions.
Are we refighting WW2 over the OOBs?
You are for some reason, we are just trying to add to the game so it will be more fun for us.
Are the smaller OOBs being swallowed up by the Germans in their OOB quest for lebensraum?
Just becouse we are interested in WW2 history and battles dont make us nazis or anything like that. If you dont like this kind of stuff, go play some other game and live people like me who is just trying to injoy the game alone.
Are the smaller OOBs having their OOB genetic structure altered by the introduction of German OOB "DNA"?
I dont see anything rong with this, a lot of the countries in the game right now did close to no fighting during WW2 and just becouse we want this dont make us out to be nazis again.
And if this isn't a flagrant case of Germanic glorification, then why aren't these issues being discussed in Paul Vebber's topic "Make OOB Comments Here"?
Canada and the US are both free countries and this is a massage board that gives us the free right to post were we dame will wont to.
This is getting ridiculous. With the new version 2.0, the possibility of having 600 units in the game makes most of these Germanic OOB "requests" extremely problematic. I mean, now it will be possible to buy dozens of units of the same type. But if there were only a handful of a certain weapon produced (for instance, the Sturmtiger) the game can now be corrupted since a player can have dozens of them in his game. This makes no sense. And corrupting other nations' OOBs to make available these obscure and limited variants of German war production makes even less sense.
These obscure and limited variants of German war production as you call them makes about as much since as haveing countries in the game that did no real fighting and a lot of them obscure and limited variands saw more action then a lot of the units of the other small nations.
I advocate forcing players who wish to include these deviants from German mainstream war production alter their own OOBs to do this, rather than forcing their wishes upon the rest of us who don't.
Now who made you the king to say what should and should not be done. For some reason you want to limit what we would like to see done to the game and what we would like to see. I think Wild bill and and others are trying to find a middle ground, so stop trying to but down what we would like to see for the injoyment of the game.
What is going on is some common since seggestions.
Are we refighting WW2 over the OOBs?
You are for some reason, we are just trying to add to the game so it will be more fun for us.
Are the smaller OOBs being swallowed up by the Germans in their OOB quest for lebensraum?
Just becouse we are interested in WW2 history and battles dont make us nazis or anything like that. If you dont like this kind of stuff, go play some other game and live people like me who is just trying to injoy the game alone.
Are the smaller OOBs having their OOB genetic structure altered by the introduction of German OOB "DNA"?
I dont see anything rong with this, a lot of the countries in the game right now did close to no fighting during WW2 and just becouse we want this dont make us out to be nazis again.
And if this isn't a flagrant case of Germanic glorification, then why aren't these issues being discussed in Paul Vebber's topic "Make OOB Comments Here"?
Canada and the US are both free countries and this is a massage board that gives us the free right to post were we dame will wont to.
This is getting ridiculous. With the new version 2.0, the possibility of having 600 units in the game makes most of these Germanic OOB "requests" extremely problematic. I mean, now it will be possible to buy dozens of units of the same type. But if there were only a handful of a certain weapon produced (for instance, the Sturmtiger) the game can now be corrupted since a player can have dozens of them in his game. This makes no sense. And corrupting other nations' OOBs to make available these obscure and limited variants of German war production makes even less sense.
These obscure and limited variants of German war production as you call them makes about as much since as haveing countries in the game that did no real fighting and a lot of them obscure and limited variands saw more action then a lot of the units of the other small nations.
I advocate forcing players who wish to include these deviants from German mainstream war production alter their own OOBs to do this, rather than forcing their wishes upon the rest of us who don't.
Now who made you the king to say what should and should not be done. For some reason you want to limit what we would like to see done to the game and what we would like to see. I think Wild bill and and others are trying to find a middle ground, so stop trying to but down what we would like to see for the injoyment of the game.
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Larry Holt
- Posts: 1644
- Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2000 10:00 am
- Location: Atlanta, GA 30068
One of the really nice things about the Matrix Games boards is the nice way that people have nicely commented on the game and each others posts so far. (HINT, HINT, if I may be so bold as to suggest this).
Personally, I'd like to see the rare and experimental equipment listed in the OOBs but not at the expense of losing basic units for other combatants. I like the game as a fun pastime but also as a tool to study tactics, history, etc. The specials, Allied "funnies", etc. may not have been produced in great numbers and may not have worked well but they were designed to meet a need. I'd like to play out the situation with them and see how well the need was or was not met.
Some comments have been made concerning the Germanic focus of OOB expansion. The Germans were the tactical inovators of WWII and had more special equipment than the others. Now I realize that the Western Allies also produced a number of special tanks (sometimes refered to as funnies). but I don't think they had the all around number of varients that the Germans did. I could be wrong & if I am then by all means suggest additonal Allied units (but in a nice way please).
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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.
Personally, I'd like to see the rare and experimental equipment listed in the OOBs but not at the expense of losing basic units for other combatants. I like the game as a fun pastime but also as a tool to study tactics, history, etc. The specials, Allied "funnies", etc. may not have been produced in great numbers and may not have worked well but they were designed to meet a need. I'd like to play out the situation with them and see how well the need was or was not met.
Some comments have been made concerning the Germanic focus of OOB expansion. The Germans were the tactical inovators of WWII and had more special equipment than the others. Now I realize that the Western Allies also produced a number of special tanks (sometimes refered to as funnies). but I don't think they had the all around number of varients that the Germans did. I could be wrong & if I am then by all means suggest additonal Allied units (but in a nice way please).
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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.
Never take counsel of your fears.
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victorhauser
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: austin, texas
Charles, I made the "Elephant" comment as an example. I've never actually done that in any of my campaigns because I think the Elephant is an inferior weapon. But I have composed core battlegroups with Tigers and Panthers (my usual ratio is about 40% AFV, 40% "leg", and 20% artillery).
Alas, Drake. (Sigh.) Yes, this is a free continent precisely because we (along with the help of most of the planet) defeated Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan and Fascist Italy. So yes, unless "moderated" by one of the Matrix Staff, you can say pretty much what you want and so can I in these forums. However, if you will re-read carefully what I wrote, I think you will discover that: 1) I oppose using other nations' OOBs as surrogate placeholders for trivial and minor German war equipments; 2) I believe that including such German equipments will quite possibly have a detrimental effect on the way units are purchased and employed in the game; 3) I encourage players to make whatever OOB changes they desire through the use of their own editors; and 4) I don't want to see SPWAW become dominated by ANY ethnocentric viewpoint. When I use the word "advocate", that is not synonymous with self-coronation.
Alas, Drake. (Sigh.) Yes, this is a free continent precisely because we (along with the help of most of the planet) defeated Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan and Fascist Italy. So yes, unless "moderated" by one of the Matrix Staff, you can say pretty much what you want and so can I in these forums. However, if you will re-read carefully what I wrote, I think you will discover that: 1) I oppose using other nations' OOBs as surrogate placeholders for trivial and minor German war equipments; 2) I believe that including such German equipments will quite possibly have a detrimental effect on the way units are purchased and employed in the game; 3) I encourage players to make whatever OOB changes they desire through the use of their own editors; and 4) I don't want to see SPWAW become dominated by ANY ethnocentric viewpoint. When I use the word "advocate", that is not synonymous with self-coronation.
VAH
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victorhauser
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: austin, texas
I think it is sometimes fun to play 'what if' with the rare vehicles. What if the Russians had folded, or the European Invasion had failed, and Germany (or the US for that matter) had had time to develop and produce some of these in large numbers - how effective would they have been (in simulation anyways)? At the least, it is entertaining.Originally posted by victorhauser:
This is getting ridiculous. With the new version 2.0, the possibility of having 600 units in the game makes most of these Germanic OOB "requests" extremely problematic. I mean, now it will be possible to buy dozens of units of the same type. But if there were only a handful of a certain weapon produced (for instance, the Sturmtiger) the game can now be corrupted since a player can have dozens of them in his game. This makes no sense. And corrupting other nations' OOBs to make available these obscure and limited variants of German war production makes even less sense.
I think this thread has pointed out that we need to convert the world onto being WWII maniacs like many of us here. Why? Because then there would be enough interest in the computer industry where we could make not only what I see as the historic attempt at battle in SPWAW, but also a more hypothetical game elsewhere (all of course with strategic overtones included).
I want to clarify my earlier statement to say that I would like to see lots of the rare/what-if units. However, a) I would like to see them so identified (e.g. some sort of code flag, and a text flag for the user) and b) I don't want them at the expense of anything that's already there, unless a unit replaces something that was incorrect. I especially don't want to remove entire countries. Part of the interest of this game for me is that it doesn't only feature the 'coffee table' armies. Let's find a way to expand everything.
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Desert Fox
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Tue May 09, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Ohio, that is all I can say.
Well, personally, I am all for German war machine glorification. They had tons of cool toys to play with, and I know it would be great if I could play with them too. The allies did not have anywhere near the amount of different vehicles and equipment that the Germans did.
I personally don't see much need for the railguns in the oobs since they are of little tactical use. Maybe for those few scenarios that might be an allied battlegroup fighting to destroy the guns, but otherwise they are pretty useless.
What I would like to see is all those cool tank variants that the germans had and used in tactical operations. I would also love to see their planned and prototype units. The Maus is already there, but I think it would be interesting to play with the E series and guided anti tank missles. These are great for what-if scenarios and generated 1946+ campaigns. Yeah it would be odd if the AI used these things en masse, but then it already uses a lot of things en masse that it should not be using. To leave something out for the sole reason of keeping the AI from using it is ridiculous. The AI needs to be reprogrammed to fix this. If you want historical deployment, then play scenarios.
I have already mentioned my desire for some of the obscure and drawing board allied units, but again, the allies did not have as many as the germans did.
I personally don't see much need for the railguns in the oobs since they are of little tactical use. Maybe for those few scenarios that might be an allied battlegroup fighting to destroy the guns, but otherwise they are pretty useless.
What I would like to see is all those cool tank variants that the germans had and used in tactical operations. I would also love to see their planned and prototype units. The Maus is already there, but I think it would be interesting to play with the E series and guided anti tank missles. These are great for what-if scenarios and generated 1946+ campaigns. Yeah it would be odd if the AI used these things en masse, but then it already uses a lot of things en masse that it should not be using. To leave something out for the sole reason of keeping the AI from using it is ridiculous. The AI needs to be reprogrammed to fix this. If you want historical deployment, then play scenarios.
I have already mentioned my desire for some of the obscure and drawing board allied units, but again, the allies did not have as many as the germans did.
I think a lot of this discussion is for when you play the long campaign or a lot of battle generated games. I think some obscure items should be included in the game for scenerio designs where the designer has the option to chose the weapons for fun only and in what if battle.
But after saying all of this maybe some restrictions could be used for the AI where the AI can not purchase these units.
As to fighting only defensive battles, as some one has stated before, has any one fought a defensive battle where the assulting units were under human control things really get very messy for defense.
Panther
But after saying all of this maybe some restrictions could be used for the AI where the AI can not purchase these units.
As to fighting only defensive battles, as some one has stated before, has any one fought a defensive battle where the assulting units were under human control things really get very messy for defense.
Panther
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victorhauser
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: austin, texas
Well, there is no reason to restrict unit selection to 'balance' things. It's just tough luck for the small countries. USSR v. Bulgaria will never be a fair fight, even if you eliminate half the Soviet OOB. If you want to have UK v. USSR it's a fair fight, and it doesn't matter how many units they can choose from. Variety does not equal superiority.
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victorhauser
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: austin, texas
I agree with Seth there. It's not the number of units in the OOB that matters, it's the fact that Russia gets T-34's in 1941, or that Germany gets Tigers in 1943... However, I disagree with the "full German war machine glorification", it wastes space to have variants on vehicles that aren't different enough to change gameplay. Minor variations just fill up the encyclopedia and create confusion among less fanatical players. There is no need for every single type of halftrack variant to be in the game. For me this has nothing to with equal representation of nations, it's purely the fact that having gobs of 'stuff' isn't inherently better. The Germans in WWII happen to have created a situation for themselves that's affecting us today. Since they did have so many damn variants anyone with an equiptment history book can find reference to some vehicle or weapon that was used once or twice and think that SPWAW is neglecting Germany "and all it's glory." Most countries dont go through the same magnitude of nationwide madness that would allow for such an inefficient, pride-laden military industry. I'm all for having prototypes that could have had a big impact on tactical combat (but there should be some kind of limitation on their use or something)
Just think about it. When you're playing the game you dont care wether you have the option to have one variant over the other if it doesn't have any impact on the game. I used to feel that the more the better was always the case. But I don't play as if that was the case. I purchase based on historical accuracy, or bang for the buck. (That means I love StuGIII's, and T-34s)
Tomo
Just think about it. When you're playing the game you dont care wether you have the option to have one variant over the other if it doesn't have any impact on the game. I used to feel that the more the better was always the case. But I don't play as if that was the case. I purchase based on historical accuracy, or bang for the buck. (That means I love StuGIII's, and T-34s)
Tomo
Well, as long as I had all the basics, no. I'd even accept the implied challenge, except I really don't have time, and I doubt my skill is up to yours. Tanks are just tanks. If you can choose from 50 types, and I can only pick from three types of equal quality, it makes no difference. What will make the difference is troop and equipment quality. For smaller countries, that's almost always going to be lower. Small countries usually have less to choose from, but I don't think the number of choices has anything to do with their being outclassed. Rather, it's the obsolete crud with which they were burdened. You could probably win as the Germans against all of the minors if you were only able to pick from a Panther and one of the better rifle squads. I like the minors, so don't misunderstand me. I think every country should have as much variety as historical realism permits. I would also like to see the exotics, and I wouldn't be afraid to take them on. Now maybe I would be more comfortable playing as the Italians against your Germans if we had a gentlemen's agreement not to use the Maus, but that's no reason to get rid of it. I'd probably lose, but that has nothing to do with unit choices. Some armies are just inherently superior to others. If everyone was equal, it would be unrealistic, and no fun to boot. Why not just knock everyone down to one generic tank, a generic infantry team, etc.? Shades of SP1!
Look guys, no need to fight -- if you want to, let's do it over a PBEM game.
Check out The Russo-German Edition, an OOB add-on for SP:WW2. It includes TONS of German and Russian units never before seen -- even V-2's and heli-planes! OK, so there's a bug with the V-2's that doesn't let them fire (ruined a PBEM game strategy I had), but that will be fixed asap.
My point here is that there are people working to give the German players what they want, and the Russian players what they want. Yes, it's not available for SPWAW . . . yet. But pick it up for SP:WW2 v2.x while you still have it on your hard drive, and then write to Klaus & Oleg and let them know you want the same thing for SPWAW! That's how you do it, IMHO, not by shortshrifting other countries, or using valuable time & resources on one country when they can be spent in making the game more well-rounded. There are many, many battles that are important, interesting and fun that don't include the Germans, Russians, Americans & British . . .
I just did one for SP:WW2 that included Thailand -- a great assault-defend scenario (the actual battle, that is). I don't advocate that Thailand be brought into the game on the strength of one battle -- but I'd like to be able to model Thailand for a couple of scenarios off another countries OOB -- but I can't do that if the game becomes a German East & West Front Game.
The game is billed, after all, as allowing the player to choose -any- Allied or Axis nation. It doesn't fulfill that promise yet, and never will if they concentrate on just the 3 or 4 major players (who are done in great depth already -- as evidence of there not being any more room in the German OOB for additions).
I'm not arguing with anyone here, just putting my two pence in. If I see people calling for something I don't want to see happen, and then do not respond with what I would rather see -- then I have no complaint when the game turns into something I don't want to play anymore. But I have every right to ask for greater detail on the "minor" country OOBs, just as those advocating expanded German OOBs do. Right?
And that is all I'm doing -- asking for what I want to see.
And as I said, if anyone wants to fight, let's do it on the SPWAW battlefield, OK?
Check out The Russo-German Edition, an OOB add-on for SP:WW2. It includes TONS of German and Russian units never before seen -- even V-2's and heli-planes! OK, so there's a bug with the V-2's that doesn't let them fire (ruined a PBEM game strategy I had), but that will be fixed asap.
My point here is that there are people working to give the German players what they want, and the Russian players what they want. Yes, it's not available for SPWAW . . . yet. But pick it up for SP:WW2 v2.x while you still have it on your hard drive, and then write to Klaus & Oleg and let them know you want the same thing for SPWAW! That's how you do it, IMHO, not by shortshrifting other countries, or using valuable time & resources on one country when they can be spent in making the game more well-rounded. There are many, many battles that are important, interesting and fun that don't include the Germans, Russians, Americans & British . . .
I just did one for SP:WW2 that included Thailand -- a great assault-defend scenario (the actual battle, that is). I don't advocate that Thailand be brought into the game on the strength of one battle -- but I'd like to be able to model Thailand for a couple of scenarios off another countries OOB -- but I can't do that if the game becomes a German East & West Front Game.
The game is billed, after all, as allowing the player to choose -any- Allied or Axis nation. It doesn't fulfill that promise yet, and never will if they concentrate on just the 3 or 4 major players (who are done in great depth already -- as evidence of there not being any more room in the German OOB for additions).
I'm not arguing with anyone here, just putting my two pence in. If I see people calling for something I don't want to see happen, and then do not respond with what I would rather see -- then I have no complaint when the game turns into something I don't want to play anymore. But I have every right to ask for greater detail on the "minor" country OOBs, just as those advocating expanded German OOBs do. Right?
And that is all I'm doing -- asking for what I want to see.
And as I said, if anyone wants to fight, let's do it on the SPWAW battlefield, OK?
Ed Mortimer
Meglio un Giorno da Leone
Meglio un Giorno da Leone