Soviet Cohesion

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 2:09 pm

Is it at all possible to allow the Soviets to be a little more agressive in the 41?

Its rather annoying to have a Panzer Korps breakthrough your line and not one units dares to move or attack even though the chances of success would be great- even a limited success would make the German player think twice about insane breakthroughs!

I already know the arguements against:

Communication breakdown
Leadership skills
Lack of mobility
etc etc....

But surely when the enemy closes in on Moscow- and more experienced leaders ie Zhukov were to take control of an operation- Soviet Armies could act with at least a little effectiveness.

I am not suggesting allowing the soviets to launch massive offensives but could the date for cohesive battles be brought forward by two or three weeks- or at least the randomized attacks that take place have a greater odds of success in terms of Armies operating together?

Let me know what you guys think- Cya

Muzrub.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 3:32 pm

One possibility could be remove the plot penalty for the soviet units. The russian troops trapped in pockets could have a major chance of success to escape and the soviet player could do some counterattacks in the summer.But due of lack of command control these attacks never will be combined with other armies.

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 4:29 pm

That would be helpfull indeed- something like that could be considered.

As it stands at the moment the Germans can advance without any fear what so ever- but even in reality experienced Panzer commanders were concerned about major Panzer drives- at least in reality something could have gone wrong!

But in the game you can be 100% sure of complete success unless you have an extreme amount of bad luck.

Lack of control over Soviet units could continue until while the blitzkrieg bonus is in effect then be removed.
Thats a reasonable amount of time for major Panzer breakthroughs and it gives the soviets a chance to combat- actually fight at the gates of Moscow.
The ability to counter attack would solve this experience problem.

Muzrub.

czerpak · Post by **czerpak** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:54 pm

I agree with Muzrub. Last game I played as Soviets - in 2 months time not even one single attack succesfull. Thats at least a bit to much. Seems like they didnt have any officers at all !
And I am talking about fighting german korps well out of supply.
Maciej

fab4 · Post by **fab4** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 10:38 pm

dont forget this game is based on the eastern front,and the soviets and starlin made to mess of attacks most were disorganised and wasted many soviet troops on point less attacks.
not untill the winter of 41,did they improve there perfomance a bit.They did not realy there act together untill 43.
also i think you will find the germans attacked when they did because the soviet army was weak and dissorganised.if you make them to strong the german army would have trouble leaving poland behind let alone getting to moscow!

moonfog · Post by **moonfog** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 4:24 am

I think the idea to remove the soviet plot penalty after the axis blitzkrieg bonus ends is a good one. At least the penalty should be removed in october 1941, when the soviets consolidated their defence line. Perhaps, it is correct when soviet armies don't act together in multiple army operations. During the battle around Moscow, it's simply strange to see an army ordered to move one hex south moving one hex north in the combat resolution phase.

Until now, I played the soviet side just one time. My opponent drove his panzers forward without securing his flanks at all. There was nothing to do against that, because my armies ordered to cut these panzers off didn't follow one single order (really bad luck).

The soviet low readiness should IMHO make a planned and coordinated german attack still successfull.

moonfog

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 9:12 am

All

How about keeping the penalty but only for june/july/august? (or half way through august) Thus the serious combat before Moscow before bad weather will have the benefit of some soviet cohesion.

Removing the penalty completely would force the germans to maintain a mostly contiguous front through the early months of the invasion to prevent throwaway units cutting supply.

Loki

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:21 pm

I believe the penalty should remain until the end of the German Blitzkrieg period.

Though the Soviets were disorganised for a time they were not incapable of commen sense- and the game seems to be.

Someone mentioned the Soviets could not coordinate attacks- I agree with this to a point- but in the game the soviets only by luck can have the ability to strike at Germans on their flank.

Not all Soviet losses were due to the lack of coordination- but mainly to a stubborn defence in the period of early to late 41- in 42 the Soviet learnt their lesson and then used a flexible defence. In the game such a defense is used but alas when a front is broken the entire line must be abondoned or suffer grave casualties.

After the Blitzkrieg penalty soviet units need more co-ordination.

Loki pointed out this could lead to problems with rail supply- what has to be remembered is that Soviet troops lost behind the lines did disrupt supply- these overan troops in their thousands caused many concerns for the germans- but the game does not reflect that reality.

More co-ordination would mean the German player just could not surge forward and disrupt defensive lines without a care- it would also make the German player take more time to secure points of supply and not just surge forward- it would also assist in Soviet experience levels.

At the moment one bold- or should I say historically insane attack by the Germans can lead to a Soviet collapse.

Muzrub

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:47 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
I believe the penalty should remain until the end of the German Blitzkrieg period.

Muzrub

Muzz

Blitzkrieg supply ends in late august.

Quote me
"How about keeping the penalty but only for june/july/august?"

Loki

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:59 pm

Loki whats your point with that post mate- I agreed with you.

The idea you put foward was suggested by someone else earlier in the thread and I agreed with that too.

I'll quote you when I need too.
Until then......

PMCN · Post by **PMCN** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 3:35 pm

The soviets can not guarrentee that their units will execute plot functions from June to August 41.
Starting in september they will execute such attacks. This does not mean that they do not move just that you can not be sure they will. They will always attack though...so if you start adjacent you can hit the germans.

The soviets armies will not allways combine attack until sometime in 42.

However, the probability of either a unit moving or a group attacking is increased if each army has a tank Corp attached to it from my experience.

I have generally found that I can make a mess of advancing Pz Korp on some occasions but to do so you must take a risk. The reality of the battles of 41 were such that the soviets lost a lot of men and tanks for little gain. Their entire command structure broke down on many occasions and in general there was little in the way of organised resistance (the fact that soviets were operating alone probably increased the confusion the germans were suffering as soviet units would materize out of thin air at times).

The game models the period as well as can be expected...no one likes C&C rules...and that is all you are saying. The only problem is that it does not model the russian tenacity at all well. It took the germans considerably longer to crush the pockets than the game allows for and it does not reflect the fact that the closer to moscow the germans pushed the more fanatical the russian resistance became. The russian forces at Tula fought over every structure in that city.

This could be represented by giving all hexs within 2 or 3 of moscow the norther retreat bonus (certainly all hexs with the bounds of the two rivers should get this). That would go a long way towards making it possible for the soviets to hold moscow in 41. And holding moscow in 41 is critical to stay in the game. As most german players will not turn the panzers south. And it is clear that with several weeks you can easily push to moscow during the good weather.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 3:56 pm

Muzz

Sorry mate, been hassled all day by the lady.

Loki

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 4:43 pm

Paul McNeely,

I agree with apart of what you say.

Sure Soviet losses were heavy for little gain- but in this version of an histrorical event the Soviet player does not hold ground for the sake of it.
But the German play- epecialy for the games sake can drive through a defensive without any worries.

I do think the Germans have the right to Panzer drive of a particular location but in the game a German player can drive through a line for almost any reason at all.

The reason why I suggested what I did is to make the German player think about what could happen? but alas in the game he knows what will happen and that is a free ride through Soviet lines.

The game needs a more agressive russian army- remember experience and readiness will effect the Soviet player serious;y for quite some time so there will not be any massive soviet attacks- just the ability to be a little more aggresive.

Loki- your right mate- dont worry about it- 1 question though did I send that turn back or did you not bother to reply considering the state of the game?

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 4:48 pm

The beers really messed with that last post........ *burb*

I hope it made sense..... I would read it myself but my eyes seem to be playing up.

PMCN · Post by **PMCN** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 6:48 pm

It is a question realy for the programmer.

How difficult would it be to change the chance of the soviet units moving? A reasonable fix if it is not too much work would be to make the scale slide. Rather than having say a 10% chance until the first week in september then going to a 100% chance make it dependant on the turn number. So each week it becomes more and more likely that the soviet will execute plot orders. So long as the soivets are not attacking in groups (which historically did not happen until 42) then the german will be safe but not able to blithely ignor the soviets since being cut off and attacked will certainly hurt the Pz Korp in question.

But again Arnaud would have to be able to implement this without much work and so on and my feeling is that the answer is that he can not. In principle you must wait until WIR II comes out I suspect.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 2:50 am

Originally posted by Muzrub:

Loki- your right mate- dont worry about it- 1 question though did I send that turn back or did you not bother to reply considering the state of the game?

Muzz

I have the finnished german turn zip from the game in the folder so i assume i sent it. Will send again if you want.

Loki

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:37 pm

Upto you mate- I think the Soviets could be at the end!