German vs Soviet AI

[Drax Kramer]

Has anyone ever saw German AI defeating Soviet AI in post 1941 scenarios? I played two 1942 scenarios as Chinese and Japanese respectively and in no case Germans were able to defeat Soviets. Granted, this is a historical result, but I wonder if anyone witnessed such outcome.


Drax

[Rattlehead2005]

If the German AI beats the soviets IN ANY scenario, i would be SHOCKED!!! imo the German AI is a complete joke.......The German AI use of the Navy in the Med. is absolutely silly.The German AI attacking Russia is the same damn outcome EVERYTIME(attack, attack, attack....run out of space and units to defend)and don't even get me started on the German AI in France and the Western coast. But i guess the bottom line is, this game was completely made for AV only, because the-no end date/no auto vict. jus ends in the same manner every single time(Germany running out of units, before finishing off Russia), no matter if i have edited the text files or not. This is based on me using Japan, and the AI controlling the rest of the Nations.

It's such a damn shame that i'm forced to play AV, because its obvious the AI is not designed for prolonged play....Imo thats where the replayability comes in(no end date/no av) not playing for some rediculous points(which in itself, is also not realistic) How can a game have a high replay value, if your basically doing the same thing everytime?

[Maginot]

Playing against real people is where the longevity of the game is.

[Tac2i]

I agree with Maginot. We may have come a long way from the early days of computer gaming but we are still a long way from computer game AI giving a human a serious challenge (except in chess with the use of super computers). That said, in my games against the GGWaW AI, it is giving me a pretty good fight since the 1.033 patch. Most game AI today still uses what I call the brute force method. To make a game more "challenging" it just gives the other side more and/or stronger stuff. I basically use AI play to sharpen my skills for PBEM play. Also, another patch down the road a ways will add online play via TCP/IP.

[TOCarroll]

Same here. The patch makes both sides pay more to keep the troops fed. Logistics, while not the most romantic element, are the nucleus of success. "An army travels on its stomach" (Napoleon, I think).

[nukkxx5058]

(except in chess with the use of super computers)

Even on a modest PC, except if you are a Grand master, I'm quite sure you won't beat Fritz or Chessmaster ...

But that's off topic

[Drax Kramer]

It's not that I expected German AI to defeat an experienced human opponent, the problem as I see it is that German AI can't defeat Soviet AI. This might be interpreted that human German can't defeat human Soviet if they are equally skilled.

There was (until the last patch) one other problem with AI playing each other in Europe (I was Japanese). When Germans hunkered down in Western Germany, neither Soviets nor Allies wanted to attack Germans in order to whittle them down and allow the other ally to finish Germany, so they all just sat and waited for New Year 1947.


Drax

[hakon]

ORIGINAL: Rattlehead2005

If the German AI beats the soviets IN ANY scenario, i would be SHOCKED!!! imo the German AI is a complete joke.......The German AI use of the Navy in the Med. is absolutely silly.The German AI attacking Russia is the same damn outcome EVERYTIME(attack, attack, attack....run out of space and units to defend)and don't even get me started on the German AI in France and the Western coast. But i guess the bottom line is, this game was completely made for AV only, because the-no end date/no auto vict. jus ends in the same manner every single time(Germany running out of units, before finishing off Russia), no matter if i have edited the text files or not. This is based on me using Japan, and the AI controlling the rest of the Nations.

It's such a damn shame that i'm forced to play AV, because its obvious the AI is not designed for prolonged play....Imo thats where the replayability comes in(no end date/no av) not playing for some rediculous points(which in itself, is also not realistic) How can a game have a high replay value, if your basically doing the same thing everytime?

(in reply to nukkxx)

Hmm. Not my experience. The only time i've played Japan vs the AI, Germany had no problem defeating russia. Of course, it may have helped that i took Kazan and Caucasus a few turns before Germany took Moscow.

As it was only 43, and auto-victory (as usual) was no challenge, i turned off both auto-victory and no-end-date. It looked good for a while. I was dominating the pacific with some land based air, and the american AI still wasted huge funds trying to get across (everything got sunk).

Taking china, india and all pacific islands (never australia, though), and building my industry i was slowly approaching the western allies in production (manpower was the real limiting factor). My plans was to use my superior air and naval assets to take control of Africa, Australia and the Med before assaulting either England or America.

But _then_ the German AI was starting to show it's weakness. Even though German production was almost as big as the allied, and the allies was spending a significant part of their income vs me, Germany was not able to defend France well enough to prevent an invasion. And after the invasion, the Germany AI was constantly spreading out into two areas, letting the allies do a concentrated attack vs one of them. The result was that the once mighty German army was withering away in just a few turns. Even by taking Gibraltar, and harassing allied shipping in the Atlantic, I was not able to save Germany.

So I turned on auto-victory just before Berlin fell......

[Rattlehead2005]

[/quote]

Hmm. Not my experience. The only time i've played Japan vs the AI, Germany had no problem defeating russia. Of course, it may have helped that i took Kazan and Caucasus a few turns before Germany took Moscow.

As it was only 43, and auto-victory (as usual) was no challenge, i turned off both auto-victory and no-end-date. It looked good for a while. I was dominating the pacific with some land based air, and the american AI still wasted huge funds trying to get across (everything got sunk).

Taking china, india and all pacific islands (never australia, though), and building my industry i was slowly approaching the western allies in production (manpower was the real limiting factor). My plans was to use my superior air and naval assets to take control of Africa, Australia and the Med before assaulting either England or America.

But _then_ the German AI was starting to show it's weakness. Even though German production was almost as big as the allied, and the allies was spending a significant part of their income vs me, Germany was not able to defend France well enough to prevent an invasion. And after the invasion, the Germany AI was constantly spreading out into two areas, letting the allies do a concentrated attack vs one of them. The result was that the once mighty German army was withering away in just a few turns. Even by taking Gibraltar, and harassing allied shipping in the Atlantic, I was not able to save Germany.

So I turned on auto-victory just before Berlin fell......
[/quote]



Well i guess it also depends on the settings of your game. I am specifically talking about using no supply help, with avanced supply on. And even when i give Germany extra units, or take control of there production a few turns(buying units that they SHOULD be buying) They always STILL fall short of delivering the final blow. They basically get to Moscow, or surround it, but NEVER finish them off because the Allies land in France. Which then causes Germany to pull all its forces from the East, to the West, to deal with the Allies. Another thing that i JUST dont get is, why in hell, is the AI not programmed to defend France and the West coast better. A simple fix would be more Flak units concentration(imo). Theres been times when i have purchased the Flak for Germany, just to have the AI cancel it out, on ending of production, or next turn(that pisses me off...lol)

[Bromley]

I'm having the same problem. I've been playing Japan and trying various combinations of strategies, before settling on the gang-up-on-USSR one. The point is that I've taken the Urals a couple of times now and Germany still vacillates around Moscow.

Until the Wallies invade France. A human would move AA/fighters west when the WA keep bombing and the USSR has almost no air.

[hakon]

I'm having the same problem. I've been playing Japan and trying various combinations of strategies, before settling on the gang-up-on-USSR one. The point is that I've taken the Urals a couple of times now and Germany still vacillates around Moscow.

Until the Wallies invade France. A human would move AA/fighters west when the WA keep bombing and the USSR has almost no air.

My rough guess is that the developers were quite happy when the ai didnt knock out Russia and when the allies were able to land in france in about 1944. Part of the kick of playing htis game, is how close it can be to the real war on the grand strategic level. That is probably not accidental. "Fixing" the AI to do unhistorical things, like actually taking Russia, or actually being able to hold the atlantic wall would probably not be priority.

Still, if you do sufficient harm to Russia as Japan, the German AI _is_ capable of cleaning up the remains. You probably need to do this before the allies are able to land in france, though.

[Drax Kramer]

I think German AI should be capable of defeating Soviet AI (defined as taking the line Leningrad-Moscow-Caucasus and holding it) in say 25% of games. I don't think German AI should be dependant upon the Japanese march through Siberia (which should be extremely difficult for Japanese AI to pull out).


Drax

[rocksk]

German can only produce 7 units + 2 from other others due to pop limit. If German failed to kill off Sov by 43.
Each attack will generate around 5 damage unit from Sov. Addition attack from WA cost even more.

That i double it is possible due to attrition.

[Bromley]

Just had another game where Germany failed to take Moscow. All my games to date have been 1940 and, with the exception of the last one, basic supply.

I waited until Germany attacked the USSR and then took Irkutsk, Vladi and Yakutsk in the same turn (Summer 41). A steady move westwards saw me taking the Urals in Summer/Fall 42.

The Germans meanwhile have squandered the distraction that I provided. Oh, sure, they've encircled Moscow such that by Summer 43 it's the only Soviet territory that's not under Axis occupation. In doing so though they've spread their combat power and never commit to the final battle. Which is a shame because the Wallies invade France in Summer 43, which triggers the Fall 43 retreat of 90% of the the German armies. I can understand the need to defend West Germany (29 unit army vs allies 29 in West France), but what's the point in placing a 23 size army in the Netherlands when keeping them for one more turn in Russia would have allowed the Soviets to be conquered? Instead, I as the Japs get to watch another breakout of Russian infantry. My only hope is that they stupidly attack Gorki so I can get to Moscow myself.

The balance point was Summer/Fall 42. That's when Germany could have taken Moscow without much trouble rather than expending effort (and more importantly time) encircling. That would have given them a year to mop up and reinforce their western and southern fronts prior to invasion.

Note that this is a separate issue to whether I, as the Japanese, should attack the USSR 100% of the time.

[rocksk]

Fall 43 retreat of 90%

I believe this is a tactical to swamp the allies and kick them out to sea. WA will suffer 100% loss if german gets to kick the sea then hit the ground troops. i myself will do that.

[Bromley]

Sure, it can make sense. However, in this case, the Germans could, but don't, finish the Soviets that turn.

Also, the Germans aren't in a position to counter attack the next turn as only 40% of the units that they moved are adjacent to West France. I've yet to see the AI push the Wallies into the sea.

[Drax Kramer]

German AI concentrates the bulk of Wehrmacht into Festung Ruhr and try to beat the clock. Personally, I'd prefer for Germans to fight in the ruins of Berlin, but as long as "fort" is in Western Germany, AI will go to the best defensible terrain.


Drax