West Front

Swordolight2000 · Post by **Swordolight2000** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 5:04 am

Do you guys think we should ask Matrix and see if they can redo West Front like they did with WiR

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:20 am

I have already asked, but it won't hurt to ask again.

how about it Matrix Group. can / will you either re-make Western Front or try to get it combined with WiR???

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 2:36 pm

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
I have already asked, but it won't hurt to ask again. how about it Matrix Group. can / will you either re-make Western Front or try to get it combined with WiR???

[RANT]
Those of us who work on WIR here are not Matrix employees, so I'm speaking personally here. I seriouly doubt Matrix monitors the WIR Forum, you'll have to ask them directly. WIR is not of any importance to them, despite the fact this is the second most active game forum they have. Its a hint they've managed to completely miss. The fact that Matrix won't pick up Gary's new Eastern Front game when they've picked up just about every other damn game being created under the sun right now, including sci-fi stuff, says all you need to know, I sadly believe. Look at all their wargames. Almost all are tactical or intermediate level operational using a variation of RTS. The only exceptions are Steel Panthers, the games being produced by 2by3games, and the Napoleonic Wars. War in the Pacific (vaporware until Uncommon Valor is finished - this is probably years away) and the Napoleonic Wars (8+ months away and counting) are the only high level strategy, non-RTS games they have made or are making. This from a company with the motto "wargaming gets serious". So is Matrix going to become known for strategic, non-RTS games? Don't hold your breath. The truth is we are going to have to look elsewhere. Clash of Steel is a disgrace, Computer Third Reich is flawed, Road To Moscow is dead, GG's Eastern Front is nothing more than a pipe dream at this stage without a publisher and looking like nothing more than an updated Windows version of WIR II anyway (not unappreciated but not original or the ideal). World in Flames sputters along on gas fumes with no end in sight, and there will never be a computer version of any of Avalon Hill's strategic board wargames (Advanced Third Reich) or of the monster board games from SPI (Drang Nach Osten, War In Europe) that are *long* dead. No one has gotten WWII Europe right, and it looks like everyone has given up trying.
[/RANT]

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>

jnier · Post by **jnier** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 11:34 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

[RANT]
Those of us who work on WIR here are not Matrix employees, so I'm speaking personally here. I seriouly doubt Matrix monitors the WIR Forum, you'll have to ask them directly. WIR is not of any importance to them, despite the fact this is the second most active game forum they have. Its a hint they've managed to completely miss. The fact that Matrix won't pick up Gary's new Eastern Front game when they've picked up just about every other damn game being created under the sun right now, including sci-fi stuff, says all you need to know, I sadly believe. Look at all their wargames. Almost all are tactical or intermediate level operational using a variation of RTS. The only exceptions are Steel Panthers, the games being produced by 2by3games, and the Napoleonic Wars. War in the Pacific (vaporware until Uncommon Valor is finished - this is probably years away) and the Napoleonic Wars (8+ months away and counting) are the only high level strategy, non-RTS games they have made or are making. This from a company with the motto "wargaming gets serious". So is Matrix going to become known for strategic, non-RTS games? Don't hold your breath. The truth is we are going to have to look elsewhere. Clash of Steel is a disgrace, Computer Third Reich is flawed, Road To Moscow is dead, GG's Eastern Front is nothing more than a pipe dream at this stage without a publisher and looking like nothing more than an updated Windows version of WIR II anyway (not unappreciated but not original or the ideal). World in Flames sputters along on gas fumes with no end in sight, and there will never be a computer version of any of Avalon Hill's strategic board wargames (Advanced Third Reich) or of the monster board games from SPI (Drang Nach Osten, War In Europe) that are *long* dead. No one has gotten WWII Europe right, and it looks like everyone has given up trying.
[/RANT]

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

jnier · Post by **jnier** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 11:40 pm

There is a computer version of SPI's War in Europe. It's available at decisiongames.com for 60 bucks. You can also download the demo for free. I've played the demo and it seems to be quite good, although there is no AI.

Swordolight2000 · Post by **Swordolight2000** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:45 am

I found a bunch of game that is very nice but no AI!!! ARG!

aszilard · Post by **aszilard** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:50 am

Just one more voice for an updated Western Front. Just a little bit more work, and the game would be exceptionally good.

- Get production & equipment shifting right.
- Get HQ activation right.
- Do somthing about the weird ability to teleport hundreds of miles from HQ to HQ in one shot.
- Fix up the AI a bit so it isn't so completely clueless; eg, repeated understrength attacks against single strongpoints.

(NB: I know the "little" above is b/s; fixing it would probably be a magnum opus, I suppose).

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:59 am

Hi, the Allied AI in West Front is really quite bad. (Clueless from above is really apt) I have played axis where every alled unit in both Italy and France is wiped out and the Germans are mounting major air attacks on airfields in England, wiping out the heavy bombers. Even against humans the system allows the germans to maintain a blockade of the landing areas for many months (although it becomes nearly impossible to wipe out the allies since getting next to the beaches is fatal-shore bombardment of 10k) Has anyone playing Axis side ever lost the game?

aszilard · Post by **aszilard** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:10 am

Originally posted by Mogami:
Hi, the Allied AI in West Front is really quite bad. (Clueless from above is really apt) I have played axis where every alled unit in both Italy and France is wiped out and the Germans are mounting major air attacks on airfields in England, wiping out the heavy bombers. Even against humans the system allows the germans to maintain a blockade of the landing areas for many months (although it becomes nearly impossible to wipe out the allies since getting next to the beaches is fatal-shore bombardment of 10k) Has anyone playing Axis side ever lost the game?

You can tweak some things a little bit with Nicholas Bell's WFEDIT utility (availabe at [url=http://www.grognard.com)]www.grognard.com)[/url] but it doesn't solve the major probs. Also, it's a pain in the butt to use - similar to EDITWIR. Even an Excel-based editor like the ones for WIR and Pacwar would be much appreciated.

On Cogburn's rant above: I really don't understand why the east front gets all the attention (apart from Normandy). The possibilities for the West Front are *much* more interesting, IMO. Even with all its many faults, WF remains an excellent game - you get kind of a "beginning/middle/end", versus the East Front, which is more "beginning/long drawn out end".

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:04 pm

Originally posted by J Nier:
There is a computer version of SPI's War in Europe. It's available at decisiongames.com for 60 bucks.

Thanks! I never knew there was a computer version. Its a DOS app with no AI, but its better than nothing.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:17 pm

Originally posted by aszilard:
On Cogburn's rant above: I really don't understand why the east front gets all the attention

The Eastern Front was the largest military campaign of its kind ever, ancient or modern. It should get its due attention over Normandy and the West because of its size, scope, and importance in deciding the victors of WWII in Europe.

The possibilities for the West Front are *much* more interesting, IMO.

The West Front would not have decided WWII. If Germany could have focussed only on the West I don't believe US/Britian could have defeated them on the continent. The East Front, given the USSR's early survival and subsequent late massive strength, *was* where the German Army was defeated, by '43. By '44, long before Normandy, the outcome was a foregone conclusion.

Swordolight2000 · Post by **Swordolight2000** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:19 am

and because Guderian is in Eastern Front <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> He rocks

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 7:06 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

The West Front would not have decided WWII. If Germany could have focussed only on the West I don't believe US/Britian could have defeated them on the continent. The East Front, given the USSR's early survival and subsequent late massive strength, *was* where the German Army was defeated, by '43. By '44, long before Normandy, the outcome was a foregone conclusion.

Ed

I agree.

Loki

aszilard · Post by **aszilard** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:03 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

The West Front would not have decided WWII. If Germany could have focussed only on the West I don't believe US/Britian could have defeated them on the continent. The East Front, given the USSR's early survival and subsequent late massive strength, *was* where the German Army was defeated, by '43. By '44, long before Normandy, the outcome was a foregone conclusion.

Ed - Sure, obviously the west pales into insignificance from an historical POV. I just mean "more interesting in game terms" - a subjectve view, and no doubt conditioned partly by the fact that "Breakout & Pursuit" was the first wargame I ever played. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I wish that whatever game design time & effort is put into the west wasn't so focused on just Normandy (and moreover always restricted to just the pre-breakout area, rather than eg the whole Brittany/Loire/Seine region). Normandy is just a slog, IMO.

Greg J · Post by **Greg J** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:03 am

"... and there will never be a computer version of any of Avalon Hill's strategic board wargames ..."

What about their tactical game, Squad Leader? This was the only other (war) boardgame that I learned how to play (Risk and Stratego aside). I looked into it a couple of years ago and found someone was working on it, but now it seems it has disappeared, halted, or changed into something else. Is this right? Or does it exist somewhere out there?

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:46 am

Originally posted by Greg J:

What about their tactical game, Squad Leader? Is this right? Or does it exist somewhere out there?

Well, don't ask me, I just made a fool of myself when I said there was no computer version of WIE. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Seriously, AH tried several times at a Computer Squad Leader but the developers didn't cooperate. The game always ended up something else. That Microsoft tactical game from a couple of years back started out as a Computer Squad Leader for example. The problem now is that all AH assets are now owned by Hasbro. Hasbro. These people think Risk is a wargame. Unless someone goes to a lot of trouble and offers to buy the serious games from Hasbro, I and a few others have predicted you'll not see any AH games but their beer-n-pretzel stuff out of Hasbro. ASL and Advanced Third Reich are way beyond Hasbro's league.

jontegrabben · Post by **jontegrabben** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:59 am

It came, it crashed. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> At least in my opinion. Never really gave it a shoot beacuse first shooter/"some sort of strategy" never apelled to me. Any other comments?

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:04 pm

Perhaps Rich Dionne can be persuaded to make an editor for Western Front. That wouldn't fix the AI problems and the "teleport" problems which were also in Second Front, the earlier version of Wir), but at least we could then "fix" problems with tank or air units that won't change out their equipment automatically. Western Front, If I am correct, will not allow one to change the type of equipment in a unit, either tank or air. It's a real pain, especially when I got thousands of P51, P47, Tempest M4-76, etc nand there are still units struggling with P40, and m4-75mm, etc., with the pools of these older types being diminished, the fool program still wouldn't switch them equipment.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 6:41 am

Hi, the West Front editor can be downloaded from
WWW.webgrognards.com (as mentioned above) Currently I am modifing West Front OBDD to a Franc 1940 (10 May 1940) set up. The 1940 AFVS are included with the editor (or their already in the game data just not used) I will have to redo the aircraft models and data. It will be a while before it is ready. I have French OB for May 1940 but not all TOE for the units
2e DCR
8th Tank Bn B1 bis x34
15th Tank Bn B1 bis x34
14th Tank Bn H-39 x45
27th Tank Bn H-39 x45

the listed cost for the tank types was 99 (since you are not supposed to build them) I changed B1 bis to 7 and H-39 to 4 I will find out where the factories were etc etc as i go. I have given this division exp of 50. Frnch base will be 60 German base will be 70 If someone who owns West Front wants to compile a German order of battle while I do the Allied. (you won't need to edit anything but put it in a note pad or word.txt file)
I am using the following format.
HQ-name and leader
Division name and TOE and hex location on 10 May 1940

then the strentgh numbers following the West Front format
Infantry Squads
Artillery
Anti Tank
Flak
Recon
for Pz units type and numbers of vehicles.

comments: what you think starting exp should be.

At present I am simply moving/deleting all German units so that I can first change the hexes to Allied control. Then I am going to deploy the Allied Units in France. (the only actual HQ I have changed so far is SHAEF it is now GQG a French HQ (all other allied HQ are under it) Leader is Gamelin who I vastly inflated into a 4 leader rating. Condained in this HQ (still locate in England) I have the 2e DCR with the 4 BNs already change to correct tank types (not number)
(hey I just started) But I now know how to change everything so it is now just a matter of time. Any hints or comments e-mail me (someone want to to Airunits?) <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Airunits
Name: type of Aircraft: and Number: exp rating:location on 10 May 1940 (they will be put in the closest HQ)

Aircraft need ratings for all aircraft used in groups.

<img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:38 pm

Originally posted by Mogami:
Hi, ........................................

Any hints or comments e-mail me (someone want to to Airunits?) <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Airunits
Name: type of Aircraft: and Number: exp rating:location on 10 May 1940 (they will be put in the closest HQ)

Aircraft need ratings for all aircraft used in groups.

<img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]

Mogami

I think i know where i can find the info on french air deployment. I'll check on it and get back to you. Your project sounds very interesting and i'd like to help.

Im at
nemesis@northnet.com.au

You are at
farawayelf@aol.com

correct?

Loki