Favor of the Axis.

varjager · Post by **varjager** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:43 am

I have been playing this game along time.I was happy as hell when i found out the game was being upgraded.The work that the team behind it has put in it is great.But now i tend to see a swing of favorizing the axis.I play booth sides of this game.To balance up the game a bit more i would like to remove the russian co-op restriction in the begining of aug.There can be no motivation for keeping it after aug.There is no chanse that the russians will win any fights unless the Germans have left there airsupport behind.But at least after aug in history the russians did strike back.I dont think that they where any good attacks but the where under controll.Not like to day in the game.You give a order and the units dont move at all or attack in another direction.So what do you guys think?

Tom1939 · Post by **Tom1939** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:09 pm

I agree. Soviet plotting restrictions have to be eased.

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:54 pm

Hi

The soviet 'stupid factor' should end in late august. I think even players who are heavily pro german think the soviets should be able to co-ordinate attacks starting in september.
Being able to launch unrealistic attacks up to mid october because you 'know' the soviets are going to 'piss into the wind' does nothing for the credability of the game.

Loki

czerpak · Post by **czerpak** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:56 pm

Agreed. Most important, german player knows he can do anything he wants without any risk.

Die Kriegerin · Post by **Die Kriegerin** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:09 pm

The Soviets did fight quite well in the south, even in the opening weeks of the war. They lanched huge counter attack at Kleist which delayed 1st Pz Army's time table. It was the defence at the Dpnier that saved Moscow. But try to recreate this with 20% experience. I think they were far more preparied than this. Sure 1st week "suprise factor" but starting the second week it should jump up. After all they did fight the Japanese, Finns, and Poles, not well, but they learned something. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Die Kriegerin ]</p>

davewolf · Post by **davewolf** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:23 am

Originally posted by Die Kriegerin:
The Soviets did fight quite well in the south, even in the opening weeks of the war. They lanched huge counter attack at Kleist which delayed 1st Pz Army's time table.
[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Die Kriegerin ]

Die Kriegerin

Absolutely right. There were Soviet counterattacks during July-September '41. Most of them have been forgotten though (not only in the south). Have a look at http://rhino.shef.ac.uk:3001/mr-home/rzhev/rzhev2.html

Dave

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 2:57 pm

Varjager is correct!

I also believe we should be looking into German production and German readiness late in 41.
German forces were pushed to the their limit (or beyond) near the end of the 41 campaign both in men and material- but the game does not reflect this.
While re-reading Panzer leader it seems to me that German Panzer production is too great for 41-it almost seems that Germany is already on a total war footing and Speer is already in control of production. Germany has almost no problems in rebuilding the losses of 41 easly by 42 -especialy when a player removes all Panzer units from the front in late 41.
Soviet experience and numbers squads in reserve should also be another issue that is important in game balance. Soviets should also recieve some sort of defence bonus for certain cities- Moscow, Leningrad to name two.

The lack of Soviet movement is a major issue- this can be devestating to the Soviets in terms on regaining supple and counter German offensive drives in to Soviet rear areas!

The strength of the Luftwaffe seems never to ebb, they remain in most cases in a strong or unbeatable condition even in 1944, its alost imposible to defeat the Luftwaffe even when its in the hands of a moron!

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:51 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:

The strength of the Luftwaffe seems never to ebb, they remain in most cases in a strong or unbeatable condition even in 1944, its alost imposible to defeat the Luftwaffe even when its in the hands of a moron!

Muz

Not true, the luftwaffe can be 'supressed' over sections of the front if you are patient enough to build up the VVS and then apply it without fear of losses. I call it the 'rotating CAP pair' tactic and if used over a cycle of 6 turns (three complete rotations of 3 groups of 2 CAP stacks) can result in heavy losses to a german who is not willing to commit everything to defeating it.

Loki

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 5:27 pm

Not true, the luftwaffe can be 'supressed' over sections of the front if you are patient enough to build up the VVS and then apply it without fear of losses. I call it the 'rotating CAP pair' tactic and if used over a cycle of 6 turns (three complete rotations of 3 groups of 2 CAP stacks) can result in heavy losses to a german who is not willing to commit everything to defeating it.

I still believe in essence it is basically impossible to defeat the Luftwaffe as the game is now- unless Soviet experience is increased for the Air force. Unless the German player is complety hopeless- but most players are not.

If the German player limits his interdictions and useses the Luftwaffe mostly during the combat phase while bombing (H177 not sure though if it is this bomber- either way its almost unstopable)with strong FW escorts soviet airfields the Soviet players airforce depletes it numbers rather fast- especialy if the Germans do this sector by sector!

I have had success with this method my self!

varjager · Post by **varjager** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 11:53 am

So how far have we come with this issue? Can maybe RickyB or Ed maybe let us know if it is possible to change the penalty for the russians? I have just started reading "Army group South" writen by a german.He says in his books that the fighting in the south was hard.How can it be is it time to do some strenghtning to the russians in the south? Maybe increase the exp on both land and air units? Or to have all units in the south starting with strong entrenchment? I have played alot against Loki and Muz both of them have hade no problems taking Kiev in the middle of august.But in reality Kiev dident fall until almsot mid sep.
So there are some flaws in the game.But still i lover it!

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 1:11 pm

Well said Varjager-

It would be good if a fighting bonus or entrenchemnt could be given to the areas surrounding- Leningrad-Moscow- Kiev also Stalingrad when the battle continues there.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 11:59 am

Originally posted by varjager
So how far have we come with this issue? Can maybe RickyB or Ed maybe let us know if it is possible to change the penalty for the russians? I have just started reading "Army group South" writen by a german.He says in his books that the fighting in the south was hard.How can it be is it time to do some strenghtning to the russians in the south? Maybe increase the exp on both land and air units? Or to have all units in the south starting with strong entrenchment? I have played alot against Loki and Muz both of them have hade no problems taking Kiev in the middle of august.But in reality Kiev dident fall until almsot mid sep.
So there are some flaws in the game.But still i lover it!

I plan on adding in higher readiness/experience for the southern Soviet forces next, and tweaking some other things. I am not sure about raising the air experience too much, but some probably, and if need be boost the entrenchment above 3. Ed keeps the issues list, and may add in the idea on the Soviet plot penalty change.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 1:37 pm

If my opinion can be considered I agree delete the soviet plot penalty.

davewolf · Post by **davewolf** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 1:52 pm

Originally posted by Josan
If my opinion can be considered I agree delete the soviet plot penalty.

Agreed too. At least it should be reduced. There were definitely successful Soviet counterattcks from aug. '41 on. I.e. look here http://rhino.shef.ac.uk:3001/mr-home/rzhev/rzhev2.html After the PzGroups left Heeresgruppe Mitte (PzGr 3 to the north, PzGr 2 to close the Kiev pocket) the remaining Inf. Armies could only defend and had to retreat at certain sectors.

Dave

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 2:09 pm

Originally posted by davewolf

Agreed too. At least it should be reduced. There were definitely successful Soviet counterattcks from aug. '41 on. I.e. look here http://rhino.shef.ac.uk:3001/mr-home/rzhev/rzhev2.html After the PzGroups left Heeresgruppe Mitte (PzGr 3 to the north, PzGr 2 to close the Kiev pocket) the remaining Inf. Armies could only defend and had to retreat at certain sectors.

Dave

Yes you are right Dave. And not only that, in the Kiev pocket and I think in others, the soviet managed to escape many divisions from the pockets. When Guderian moved to the South there was only a thin line where the soviets get profit of that. In WiR when a soviet army is surrounded the possibilities of escape are near 0.
Deleting soviet penalty will give at least one chance of escape for trapped units.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:44 pm

Originally posted by Josan

Yes you are right Dave. And not only that, in the Kiev pocket and I think in others, the soviet managed to escape many divisions from the pockets. When Guderian moved to the South there was only a thin line where the soviets get profit of that. In WiR when a soviet army is surrounded the possibilities of escape are near 0.
Deleting soviet penalty will give at least one chance of escape for trapped units.

Removing the plot penalty will not change this, the counterattacks will still fail because of low experience and low supply.
At the strategic level, Soviet cohesion really was nonexistent, the command structure was in chaos, thus the plot penalty is there for a good reason.
I think what Rick is doing is the better thing to do, tweaking experience, readiness and entrenchment should lead to Soviet units that are not so easily destroyed. We've got a game that has changed in the favor of the Axis since v2.0, but fixing this by eliminating rules that still make sense is not the way to solve the problem. Boosting Soviet units by tweaking readiness and experience will get us close to what we want.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 1:54 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn

Removing the plot penalty will not change this, the counterattacks will still fail because of low experience and low supply.
At the strategic level, Soviet cohesion really was nonexistent, the command structure was in chaos, thus the plot penalty is there for a good reason.
I think what Rick is doing is the better thing to do, tweaking experience, readiness and entrenchment should lead to Soviet units that are not so easily destroyed. We've got a game that has changed in the favor of the Axis since v2.0, but fixing this by eliminating rules that still make sense is not the way to solve the problem. Boosting Soviet units by tweaking readiness and experience will get us close to what we want.

Ricks improves sure will difficult more destroy soviet units I think more or less like Possum version but this will not help soviet units to escape or make counterattacks. The counterattacks, even with great chance of failure, may to do the germans think twice to send marauding korps rear enemy lines and can attrition (readiness...) the german spearheads.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 2:38 am

Originally posted by Josan

Ricks improves sure will difficult more destroy soviet units I think more or less like Possum version but this will not help soviet units to escape or make counterattacks. The counterattacks, even with great chance of failure, may to do the germans think twice to send marauding korps rear enemy lines and can attrition (readiness...) the german spearheads.

I've always noticed Soviets can counterattack, but they sometimes fail and are rarely coordinated or likely to have continuation. Even when they work though, they rarely have a significant threat because of low experience,. readiness, and supply. I don't fear leaving a Soviet unit behind to be destroyed by infantry because it rarely can attack with enough strength to threaten even an infantry corps. So we're back to the readiness, experience, supply, and OPs issue.
We perhaps should reduce the poor command period by a month from June-October to June-September, as having the penalty for 4 months may be a little excessive.. I'll put it on the issues list.

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 7:18 am

Ed- soviet movement has to fixed in order to stop german players from just driving into nowhere purely to break a line- in many cases the soviets have no chance to stop the gap even if there were units everywhere surrounding the break through!

German units didnt drive through lines for no reason during the war- but in the game they can and as such to stop stupoid moves the soviet must be able to move armies in the correct manner even if counter attacks are still 50-50.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:46 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub
Ed- soviet movement has to fixed in order to stop german players from just driving into nowhere purely to break a line- in many cases the soviets have no chance to stop the gap even if there were units everywhere surrounding the break through!

German units didnt drive through lines for no reason during the war- but in the game they can and as such to stop stupoid moves the soviet must be able to move armies in the correct manner even if counter attacks are still 50-50.

I don't know,. I've always seen some risk in going flat out and ignoring all the Soviet units being passed. Initially I break down Soviet units to one division per corps (then build up), so I have a horde of units on the line. When the panzers make a hole, I have every unit in range try to plot into the breakthrough square to cut supply. Ususally out of 3 or 4 at least 1 manages to plot. This leaves the units in bad situations but it slows down the panzers and may force them to come back and reopen the breakthrough they created in the last turn.. If I lose units because they're now out of position, I've got more inf divisions where they came from.
My point is if the game is now unbalanced its because of the things we've changed. Those are the things which we should tweak in order to fix the problem, not by removing a valid rule that still makes sense.