Soviet shipyards

[Drax Kramer]

I was playing Soviets in 1941 scenario when odd things happened to my fleets.

First, Soviet battleship has been damaged in the Gulf of Finland and instead of limping back to Leningrad, he magically teleported itself into the shipyard in Caucasus (I moved the Belorussian factory there, to have some facilities to repair my Black Sea Fleet).

Next turn, my destroyer was damaged in the port of Sevastopol and instead of being towed to Caucasus, it ended in Leningrad, naturally.


Drax

[5cats]

In one game vs the AI, I noticed previously damaged Russian fleets from the Lenningrad area were repaired in Vladivostoc. How they got there is anybody's guess!

[pyrhic]

actually, i had my russian fleets go to vladivostok once as well...

[Drax Kramer]

I had that experience in one of my previous games. What especially bothered me is that repaired submarine became frozen.

Shouldn't damaged units follow the same path as retreating ones?


Drax

[Joel Billings]

I'd love to get a save just before one of these retreats that would repeat and show the problem. If you have one, send it to 2by3@2by3games.com. I can't explain the behavior without seeing a save.

[Joel Billings]

I spoke with Keith and he said these are the intended retreat paths. We agree it does lead to some very gamey retreats for naval units (usually only happens to Russian fleets). Basically, once the computer determines it can retreat to a factory, it then chooses the best factory that is connected in the same "resource grid" based on how many production slots are still available. The resource grid includes any factories connected via land or a transport path. So basically once it thinks it can trace to Leningrad, it then picks a more open factory that has a port anywhere connected to Leningrad. We may add code to try to block this sort of move in the future, but we consider it pretty low priority, and we don't want to break something just to put in a quick fix for this fairly rare situation. Russian fleets don't usually live very long.

[pyrhic]

dont suppose you could put in a quick fix so that the us pacific fleet retreats to the east coast if hawaii is unavailable (instead of being destroyed)?

[Drax Kramer]

What routine allows any naval unit to pass through Bospor while Turkey is neutral? American battleship damaged in Philippine sea limping all the way to Brooklyn Navy Yard is one thing, it is round about route, but it is physically possible.

But, Soviet battleship can't pass through Bospor while Turkey is neutral, right? So, why does the damage routine allows that?


Drax

[Joel Billings]

Because it checks to see if it can reach a factory, then once it can reach a factory it is allowed to go to any factory connected to that factory. This is how it works for all units. Obviously for ships it would be best if it checked to see if there was a valid sea route, but it does not do that. It just checks to see if it is connected via land or transports. For almost all others this isn't a problem (Italian ships want to go to Italy, German to Germany, Rumanian to Rumania. It's only for the Russians that this causes a problem. That's why I say it is a low priority issue.

[pyrhic]

um, so why are all the US Pacific ships destroyed when japan takes hawaii and then WC USA?

[Joel Billings]

Not sure why. You'd have to give me the step by step of what happens.

[pyrhic]

US is frozen pending japanese attack,

japan attacks/invades hawaii and the ships all flee to WC USA.

Japan then sends 2 carriers to support attacks/invasion of WC usa(same turn), succeeds, and all ships destroyed.

I have a save if you want it.

[Joel Billings]

Go ahead and send it. Not sure if it's because they already retreated once in the turn or something else. Is there a friendly port within their movement range (of their max speed rating).

[Drax Kramer]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Because it checks to see if it can reach a factory, then once it can reach a factory it is allowed to go to any factory connected to that factory. This is how it works for all units. Obviously for ships it would be best if it checked to see if there was a valid sea route, but it does not do that. It just checks to see if it is connected via land or transports.

How does the program put damaged ships into the factory? I suppose damaged ships go through the sea zones. Is there some requirement these sea zones must fulfill? For example, if British battleship is damaged in the Gulf of Finland, what conditions must be met for this battleship to end in England's shipyard? Can such damaged battleship "move" through enemy occupied sea zones? Can it move through enemy controlled narrows?

For almost all others this isn't a problem (Italian ships want to go to Italy, German to Germany, Rumanian to Rumania. It's only for the Russians that this causes a problem. That's why I say it is a low priority issue.

I do not question the priorities, but am interested what mechanism allows anyone's naval units to pass through Bospor while it is controlled by neutral Turkey. I suppose the same mechanism that prevents Axis naval units from moving through Panama or Suez canal should prevent Soviet or anyone's ships from passing through Dardanelles, because if damaged ships can pass through neutral straits than operational ships can pass too which I don't think was the designer's intent.


Drax

[Joel Billings]

Look at the manual and the clarifications regarding naval retreats in the official rule clarifications thread. What I'm not sure about is whether damaged units also are blocked from retreating through narrows when on the way to a factory. They way Keith described it, these ships are seeing that Leningrad is a valid retreat location, and then, after they have gone there, the computer decides to pick a "better" factory for them to go to that is connected via land/transports, and that's how they end up in other ports. My guess is if Leningrad was not available, they would be destroyed, but I'm not 100% sure about that. For a normal retreat, they have to be able to reach the retreat location within their maximum speed rating and cannot pass through an enemy narrows area (neutral may be ok). Does that help explain it? Ideally ships should not "warp" to different factories just because they are connected via a valid land link to a valid retreat location.

[Drax Kramer]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Look at the manual and the clarifications regarding naval retreats in the official rule clarifications thread. What I'm not sure about is whether damaged units also are blocked from retreating through narrows when on the way to a factory.

I guess they are. I sent my Soviet destroyer out of Baltic to test it. It was duly attacked by Luftwaffe in Kattegat. It was damaged and did not appear on the production track, although I saw no message indicating it.

They way Keith described it, these ships are seeing that Leningrad is a valid retreat location, and then, after they have gone there, the computer decides to pick a "better" factory for them to go to that is connected via land/transports, and that's how they end up in other ports. My guess is if Leningrad was not available, they would be destroyed, but I'm not 100% sure about that. For a normal retreat, they have to be able to reach the retreat location within their maximum speed rating and cannot pass through an enemy narrows area (neutral may be ok). Does that help explain it? Ideally ships should not "warp" to different factories just because they are connected via a valid land link to a valid retreat location.

What is the status of canals? Bosporus is not represented as narrows, but as canal, similar to Panama or Suez. My Soviet transport ships can't pass through it although Turkey is only neutral, not hostile. So, if transports can't pass through Bosporus, damaged ships should not be able either, Caucasus factory should be deemed inaccessible by the program.

What is difficult is that this event cannot be recreated with 100%. Sometimes ships end in the nearby shipyard, sometimes not, but I think movement through Bosporus is the suspect thing that could be checked.


Drax

[Joel Billings]

They shouldn't move through enemy or neutral canals. Again, the damaged units aren't actually moving by sea, they are moving to Leningrad and then taking the train to the Caucasus. Unrealistic yes, but that's how the code appears to be moving them.

[Drax Kramer]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

They shouldn't move through enemy or neutral canals. Again, the damaged units aren't actually moving by sea, they are moving to Leningrad and then taking the train to the Caucasus. Unrealistic yes, but that's how the code appears to be moving them.

Then my only suggestion is to make program move damaged ships to closest shipyard (coastal factory plus population pool) and stop. Than, it's up to player (AI or human) to decide whether to do repairs, delay them or scrap the ship.


Drax