WitP going global?

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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pasternakski
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Most of WITP customers belong to "hard to please" cathegory. Extreme examples like yourself belong to "very VERY hard to please" or "impossible to please" or "never satisfied" cathegory. Would you like to depend on such customers for your living?

O.
That is the heart and soul of capitalistic success, Oleg. When you begin, you always address the "worst case scenario" customers. That way, your product, whether it is a wargame or something else, satisfies to the degree that you do not get that worst of all possible things - a negative reputation among your customer base.

The people you describe are always the most vocal and always have the greatest effect on perceived customer satisfaction - maybe not real customer satisfaction, but nobody is interested in "Well, I think these guys do a great job." In journalism, it is called the "man bites dog" effect.

Ignore them at your own risk. Bow wow.
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And the people let me down.
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rtrapasso
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by rtrapasso »

No one, no company, no individual, no group of programmers, NO ONE will try to make game as detailed, complex and ambitious as WITP in foreseeable future, make it 10-15 years. You may love it, you may hate it but you will not see a game remotely similar to WITP - perhaps not in our lifetime(s).

I think similar things were being said when UV first came out - i was surprised therefore when WITP came out. I think someone will come out with an improved version of WITP (or a Pacific War or even global war) when computer horsepower increases.
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Hartley
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by Hartley »

That is the heart and soul of capitalistic success, Oleg. When you begin, you always address the "worst case scenario" customers.

Not when there are 6 of them,
while the product takes 6 years to develop.


Many "grognards" are unaware of how esoteric their interests are.



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Tristanjohn
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by Tristanjohn »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Your criticism is honest, but I would not call it necessarily intelligent. It usually comes out as malicious and whiney (at least to me, and I am sure to many others as well). Sometimes (often) even nitpicky.

Faced with such criticism (and you're not alone in that), what do you think it takes for a company to realise it's much more profitable, less unnerving, easier to make - lets put it mildly - "less demanding" games than WITP.

Most of WITP customers belong to "hard to please" cathegory. Extreme examples like yourself belong to "very VERY hard to please" or "impossible to please" or "never satisfied" cathegory. Would you like to depend on such customers for your living?

O.

Part of me whines when I write critically of Gary's games. This is because he's been one of the few wargame authors over the years that's bothered to design games on the Pacific theater, a subject I have deep interest in, and at a scale I can sink my teeth into. The fly in the buttermilk is Gary isn't very good at the details. Also, I've noticed over the years a strong penchant to revisit old ground with an unchanged point of view. The result has been, for my taste, more and more unsatisfying. To top it off, Gary's work has been somewhat sloppy of late, and furthermore, the after-market support he seems willing to extend to his customers has waned appreciably in the past ten or twelve years. The result of all this on me can, occasionally, cause something which approaches a whine to slip out. Here and there. But then I consider that fallibility a privilege I've both paid for with hard cash and to a degree and in a moral sense earned over time through my own contributions, modest as these might have been, to our hobby.

Am I malicious? I think that was a poor choice of words, Oleg. Malice bespeaks of evil or wicked intent, a desire to do great harm. A learned man who read my work would notice in an instant that my criticism is objective and constructive by nature. I encourage Gary to do better always, and then go on to give my opinion how that might be accomplished. This describes someone with a helping hand extended, not a person consumed with malevolence.

Are most WitP customers "hard to please"? Do you not read these boards for meaning? Can you not see that each and every time a player steps forth to offer hard criticism, a bevy of 2by3/Matrix supporters veritably rushes forth to offer their small and stilted apologies and denial, and should that person with a complaint persist, is he not then subjected to ridicule in an effort to drive him away? That is your concept of "most customers" being "hard to please"? Do you suppose a man who says on the one hand "I'd like it to be better . . . " but then on the other remarks ". . . but I'm mostly satisfied with the way it is now and grateful for what I have . . ." and caps it off with ". . . so please, Gary, keep shoveling it, because I just can't get enough" is a good example of someone "hard to please"?

As for what direction 2by3/Matrix care to go in: if indeed they concentrate solely on the beer-and-pretzels crowd then surely they will have an easier sled of it. So what? The world is full of people and all of them do not share the same standards. I don't know what the sales figures are for Risk, but I do know you can apparently buy that game all over the world, or at least you can buy it everywhere I've traveled. It seems to appeal to a wide audience, and some people consider that a wargame--and in its own way it is, I guess.

But am I responsible for 2by3/Matrix going in that direction for the reason I complain about fairly serious errors in a more ambitious program that they've designed and published and I've paid for? I don't think so, but you're welcome to.

Would I like to depend on me for my living? Surprisingly, yes, I would. I've found that I produce better work when my customers demand improvement. It is all too easy to perform down to one's market. That is, in fact, a common human trap. I try to avoid it.

Finally, is my criticism intelligent? Can you not tell the difference, Oleg?

You know, I've thought for some time that what on-line companies ought to provide is a special forum for special customers, a special place where their special needs might be better cared for. They might consider complimentary coffee at the door, and perhaps even provide special little boxes of virtual crayons for those whose preference is to boldly mark-up the walls.

Now if you can't understand that, or simply fail appreciate it, go see Pasternaksi. He'll give you some therapy.


Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant
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pasternakski
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

You know, I've thought for some time that what on-line companies ought to provide is a special forum for special customers, a special place where their special needs might be better cared for. They might consider complimentary coffee at the door, and perhaps even provide special little boxes of virtual crayons for those whose preference is to boldly mark-up the walls.
Is he ... is he talking about me?


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Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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pasternakski
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: Hartley
Not when there are 6 of them,
while the product takes 6 years to develop.


Many "grognards" are unaware of how esoteric their interests are.
I'm not talking about customers identified after the product reaches the market, Hartley. I'm talking about how you plan to succeed with your product insertion into the market before real customers even exist - and before the product itself even exists.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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Mike Solli
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by Mike Solli »

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
I used to play the Clash of Arms tactical Napoleonic series, particularly the four games that made up the three days of Waterloo.

I have that series too. Some day (after I'm retired, no doubt) I'll play the campaign. I learned the series from the original Martial Enterprises games (way back in the mid-70s).

Computer games are wonderful, but there's nothing like having a board with a couple thousand counters on a table in front of you with your opponent across the table from you. I'll always be a fan of board games. I still have a closet full of them.

If anyone is interested in operational or tactical boardgames, try The Gamers. They have wonderful stuff too.
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hexgod
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by hexgod »


Well, obviously Matrix games did not include Pasternakski in their marketing strategy. Not to mention overlooking his more than wierd (aforementiond as "Special") group of Hard-Core carboard + paper goons. And somehow managed to be moderatly successful in creating a game that, in its own right, is fairly fun to play. Provided that you have the time to play it, considering all the factors that are missing, or are too fast for aforementioned "Special" people; it actually takes a while to bring the full scenario to conclusion.
We programmers never finish, we just run out of time...
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pasternakski
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: hexgod


Well, obviously Matrix games did not include Pasternakski in their marketing strategy. Not to mention overlooking his more than wierd (aforementiond as "Special") group of Hard-Core carboard + paper goons. And somehow managed to be moderatly successful in creating a game that, in its own right, is fairly fun to play. Provided that you have the time to play it, considering all the factors that are missing, or are too fast for aforementioned "Special" people; it actually takes a while to bring the full scenario to conclusion.
What brought this on? I don't care if you toss a few sophomoric insults at me, but there is no reason for you to take potshots at my friends.

I have been on these forums since long before WitP was published (since before UV, in fact), and have tried to be a constructive contributor to the extent that a casual visitor on forums can be. I am a Matrix customer and have been supportive of their efforts. I comment on the flaws and failures of the UV/WitP game system because I was hoping for better - and hoped (fruitlessly, it seems) that significant improvement in the product could be realized from intelligent, pertinent commentary.

As far as being "goons," all members of the simple little wargaming club I belong to are professional people who are mostly veterans, family men, and responsible citizens of the community. We were lucky enough to have one member who runs a hobby shop that has a large, unused room in the back. Our budget for game purchases is the annual "dues" we all kick in. $120 apiece as a personal game-buying budget is not, I would guess, anywhere near as much as a lot of people here spend in a years' time on their wargaming hobby. We are not rich, we are not pretentious, we play both board wargames and computer wargames (and dabble in a few other pursuits, as well). On holidays, we and our families devote time to services and meals for the needy, particularly homeless and otherwise disadvantaged veterans. We go to work every day, care for our families and neighbors, and enjoy our hobby as an adjunct to our strong, shared interest in the serious study of history - although we don't presume to trot out fancy labels for ourselves like "historygod" or any of that kind of nonsense.

So how about you go back to governing your little six-sided domain?
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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Terminus
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by Terminus »

As much as I like taking my "sophomoric" potshots at Pasternakski, I don't think it's fair to snipe at the members of his wargaming club. We don't know them, and if they're having fun doing their thing, then that's up to them.
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hexgod
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RE: WitP going global?

Post by hexgod »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

As much as I like taking my "sophomoric" potshots at Pasternakski, I don't think it's fair to snipe at the members of his wargaming club. We don't know them, and if they're having fun doing their thing, then that's up to them.


Fair enough, I meant no real harm. It's just that to express so much frustration, and to have such high expectations of a computer war game; it get's old after a while. The amount of capital / resources / time to create a video game of any kind is beyond enormous.

We programmers never finish, we just run out of time...
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