B17 Losses too heavy

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rtrapasso
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by rtrapasso »

Does the book say they flew in hundereds, from some god forgotten, malaria ridden sh*thole, day after day, leaving nothing but smoke and dirt and sunken ships in Rabaul harbor after their 100-aircraft raids? I guess not, but that's how they act in the game, and how most Allied players use them.

You know why? I'll tell you why.

*Because of incessant Allied fanboy whines that their B17s be made easier to supply, maintain and service than your garden variety lawnmover.*

So you get some, lose some, gotta live with that (on both sides).

O.

Umm - i haven't seen any of these complaints here. Maybe in UV. Perhaps it is selective memory, but the complaints i have seen from "Allied Fanboys" relate to survivability, effectiveness, and stuff like that.

I am all for making B-17s, B-24s harder to service, etc., but i think the basic problem is that there is MUCH MORE SUPPLY available in the game than there is in real life. This is one the basic problems with the game that has been mentioned over and over.

Changing rules to reflect no. of engines on a/c (rather than the no. of a/c) might help a lot also.
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Nikademus »

I suppose a poll to see how many would like to see the old UV heavy bomber rule reinstated would be interesting though in all honesty, I doubt the dev's would be moved, because for one we are in bug fix mode at this stage and second, because of what happened the first time it was done.

There are alternate solutions too that fix the problem more readily than a code tweak.
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I suppose a poll to see how many would like to see the old UV heavy bomber rule reinstated would be interesting though in all honesty, I doubt the dev's would be moved, because for one we are in bug fix mode at this stage and second, because of what happened the first time it was done.

There are alternate solutions too that fix the problem more readily than a code tweak.


When you say "fix the problem" - which problem are you referring to? The effectiveness/survivabilty problem? The maint. problem?

And what solution(s)?
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Nikademus »

My own mod-in-progress includes a Durability increase as well as having drastically cut B-17 production. (at present its 16 a month)

In combat with Kaiser73 so far, only about 4-6 17's have been downed in actual air to air combat so far (it's 3/42 in our game) The vast majority of the 50ish 17's destroyed in our game were all caught on the ground, with the rest accounted as operational losses. K can comment on the state of his 17's better since i'm playing Japan but I think i aptly demonstrated why 17's were not immediatley based at a forward and vulnerable point such as PM. He moved the entire 39th BG there and started hitting Rabaul. My quickcounterstroke destroyed a good number of 17's on the ground and forced the 39's withdrawl to a safer area. Now in the stock scenerio, with 75 17's a month coming in this would have been no issue for him.....but with the "Trickle" of 17's being represented coming in from the pipleline....evevy 17 lost to ground attack and op losses should hurt.
(this is exactly what happened to me in my last PBEM under the old replacement rates.....was getting hit in no less than 4 places on the map in Feb 42 by up to 50-70 B-17's!)

I also cut the bomber loads of all the heavies in half because in 42 it was rare for a 17 to fly missions fully loaded. They also carried a wide variety of munitions too. Purpose is to try to tone down the "uber effect" of the bombers when attacking airbases....more important than ever with the DUR increase. From what i've seen so far i've been very happy with the combat interactions. Hopefully K agrees as well.
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

My own mod-in-progress includes a Durability increase as well as having drastically cut B-17 production. (at present its 16 a month)

In combat with Kaiser73 so far, only about 4-6 17's have been downed in actual air to air combat so far (it's 3/42 in our game) The vast majority of the 50ish 17's destroyed in our game were all caught on the ground, with the rest accounted as operational losses. K can comment on the state of his 17's better since i'm playing Japan but I think i aptly demonstrated why 17's were not immediatley based at a forward and vulnerable point such as PM. He moved the entire 39th BG there and started hitting Rabaul. My quickcounterstroke destroyed a good number of 17's on the ground and forced the 39's withdrawl to a safer area. Now in the stock scenerio, with 75 17's a month coming in this would have been no issue for him.....but with the "Trickle" of 17's being represented coming in from the pipleline....evevy 17 lost to ground attack and op losses should hurt.
(this is exactly what happened to me in my last PBEM under the old replacement rates.....was getting hit in no less than 4 places on the map in Feb 42 by up to 50-70 B-17's!)

I also cut the bomber loads of all the heavies in half because in 42 it was rare for a 17 to fly missions fully loaded. They also carried a wide variety of munitions too. Purpose is to try to tone down the "uber effect" of the bombers when attacking airbases....more important than ever with the DUR increase. From what i've seen so far i've been very happy with the combat interactions. Hopefully K agrees as well.

Interesting... hadn't thought a lot about mods, but this is food for thought.
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent


I think the problem is that WITP is unable to deal with big battles. And that he is allowing concentration, so big battles (or at least big attacks) are the only way we can play and win.

My own impression is that every fighter of each side will have a chance to attack any unit of the other side at least once... when in reality, fighters often engage only once in battle and many aerial skirmishes finish by a draw. In fact in real life when an air battle became bigger the loss ratio was falling, because:

_ it is harder to bounce a bigger formation, as more eyes are seeking the enemy. And when the formation is bounced, the rear pilots suffer while the other evaded.

_ if there are tens of planes whirling around, chasing one and aiming carefully is not a good idea.... you will probably be shot at before firing.

WITP seems to modelize only one vs one battles. And as far as I know ammunitions are unlimited.

A way to modelize what actual air battles may be that each fighter engaging the enemy will have a chance to be retired from the battle: either he has dived away to escape, or ran out of ammo, or both pilots have engaged in a long duel no one wins and so on. I think the chance a fighter breaks after any combat (not even firing) should be something like 50%.

Another problem is that WITP is not taking in account the box defensive tactic for bombers. I'm quite sure that any fighter attacking a bomber formation is experiencing return fire from only one bomber.


I think ammunition is the big culprit. From what I can see of the mechanics, no thought whatsoever was given to that absolute limitation of aerial combat. And why not? Ship ammo is tracked, torpedoes are counted, planes are only given one load of bombs to carry. Why not limit MG/cannon ammo as well? Fighters could only carry so many seconds of MG-burst capability, and then they were all done dancing.




Tristanjohn...This is an EXCELLENT point!
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Nikademus »

Here's a cut and paste of the First "Allied air effort against Rabaul" spearheaded by the 39th BG attacking at low alt in daylight. (Note that the damage hits on the 17's include AA)

IIRC....actual tally after 4 days of continuing raids was 4 17's downed to A2A with a couple more op lossed due to accident/damage.

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 29

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 17 damaged

Japanese Ships
AK Mayachi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Yuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Beryl, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Tsukubasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
24 casualties reported

Port hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
10 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 26

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 8 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
AK Tsukubasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
4 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 25

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 10 damaged

Japanese Ships
AK Tsukubasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
15 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


You know why? I'll tell you why.

*Because of incessant Allied fanboy whines that their B17s be made easier to supply, maintain and service than your garden variety lawnmover.*





That's what I suspected .. the opinion expressed was not based on data but instead on an emotional reaction. Thanks for the clarification.

I propose that we try to stick to the issues and present data either from real life or from the game to support our positions. This keeps us focused.

As to use of B17s in the game. We can compare to use IRL in the Pacific and / or we can compare to use IRL in Europe. If players choose to use B17s in larger strikes in the game, the comparisions with Europe may be more valid than comparisions with the Pacific. Strikes in the Pacific for B17s ranged between 4-20 ( per the indicated source ). SO 100+ strikes didn't happen ( with B17s in the Pacific ).

However, the bases being used in my games are either the historical bases or in locations close to those.

Difference between Europe and the Pacific,

First the Germans built up a defense network based on radar and lots of smaller bases ( similar to the British system ) the likes of which did not exist in the Pacific. First the Japanese did not have radar deployed at most of their forward bases in the 1942-43 period ( during the primary period when the B17s operate ).

Second the Japanese bases in the Pacific were for the most part too far apart to be mutually supporting as the German bases in Europe were.

Hence the Japanese would be unlikely to be able to mount the same type of defense the Germans did or at least not to the same level of effectiveness.

However, I did try to do this ( as the Japanese Player ). I build up Buna ( level 2 ) ... Dobodura ( level 4 ) ... GiliGili ( level 3 ) ... Lae ( level 7 ) .. .Salamuna ( level 2 ) ... and working on Woodlark, Goodenough and Finshaven. The basic idea is to have enough fighter bases in the area that that can't all be knocked without first causing enough loses to the bomber force to make them quit bombing. Thus far this is working. The only problem I see is that in the example I posted at the start of this thread. It seems to be working TOO well. The losses suffered by the B17 force and the Japanese fighter force where much worse for the B17 force ( and better for the fighter force ) than the BEST days the Germans ever had with a far greater defensive ability - per TristanJohn's post.

So comparing the result to history in the Pacific, we can say that the Allied player used larger raids than were used historically but still the results are not aligned with anything that actually happened either.

Comparing to Europe, specifically the Schweinfurt raids Tris mentions ... the results are also very lopsided.

The good news is that it sounds like Nik's approach, to increase the durabilty and decrease ( to the historical levels ) the numbers of B17s .. will make good strides towards fixing some of the issues .. so that sounds very interesting to me.

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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Panzer76 »

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
And the only way around this nonsense is to very closely manage all of your assets every turn.

Welcome to WitP, your micro mananaging hell :) I gave up on this game a long time ago, terrible UI.
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Panzer76 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

B-17 losses are too low [:'(]

You have way too many of them and use them for missions they never flew so the rate of loss can not be compared to what historically happened. If you want to put them mostly on naval search (just like in 1941/42) your loss rates will drop down and fit in with history.

What a a-typical response from you Mr Frag...
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Tristanjohn »

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
And yes, the designers didn't do it right but wrong. Very wrong in so many cases. That's the rub. And the pity is these complaints were voiced on the UV boards when some good change might still have been affected. But no, that wasn't to be. Which is why some people on this board today "whine" so much, I guess.

Sorry - but i have to mention this.

I had stopped posting on this board for a couple of years because i found UV totally unplayable. Literally - the game would crash every few minutes (on a relatively capable machine at the time).

To say it's our fault that we didn't mention the problems in UV that now show up in WITP is sort of like blaming the victim of a crash in a 747 for not mentioning the the flight attendants weren't serving drinks in the cabin in a timely fashion.

I wrote that these complaints were voiced. The problem is they were not listened to and then acted upon. Instead we got a rehash. (Did someone else write that these complaints were not voiced? If so, I missed it during the course of the thread.)

As for leaving the UV boards for two years out of frustration, so did I, basically. I could imagine nothing better happening with that game system, and hoped instead that something better would happen with WitP. This hope of mine didn't pan out.







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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by rtrapasso »

I wrote that these complaints were voiced. The problem is they were not listened to and then acted upon. Instead we got a rehash. (Did someone else write that these complaints were not voiced? If so, I missed it during the course of the thread.)

Arggh! Sorry, i misread that!!

My apologies! [&o][&o][&o] (My brain has been stuck in low gear most of the day.)
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Nikademus »

rtrapasso,

The developers did listen to feedback regarding A2A during the UV days. A2A was changed numerous times, including a version that specifically toned back combat casualties and included in the combat animation msgs, X plane running low on ammo.

The version generated many complaints by the public forum as being too anemic overall so the developers changed A2A back to a more intensive level.
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Tristanjohn »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

My own mod-in-progress includes a Durability increase as well as having drastically cut B-17 production. (at present its 16 a month)

In combat with Kaiser73 so far, only about 4-6 17's have been downed in actual air to air combat so far (it's 3/42 in our game) The vast majority of the 50ish 17's destroyed in our game were all caught on the ground, with the rest accounted as operational losses. K can comment on the state of his 17's better since i'm playing Japan but I think i aptly demonstrated why 17's were not immediatley based at a forward and vulnerable point such as PM. He moved the entire 39th BG there and started hitting Rabaul. My quickcounterstroke destroyed a good number of 17's on the ground and forced the 39's withdrawl to a safer area. Now in the stock scenerio, with 75 17's a month coming in this would have been no issue for him.....but with the "Trickle" of 17's being represented coming in from the pipleline....evevy 17 lost to ground attack and op losses should hurt.
(this is exactly what happened to me in my last PBEM under the old replacement rates.....was getting hit in no less than 4 places on the map in Feb 42 by up to 50-70 B-17's!)

I also cut the bomber loads of all the heavies in half because in 42 it was rare for a 17 to fly missions fully loaded. They also carried a wide variety of munitions too. Purpose is to try to tone down the "uber effect" of the bombers when attacking airbases....more important than ever with the DUR increase. From what i've seen so far i've been very happy with the combat interactions. Hopefully K agrees as well.

Actually, one of the first actions General Kenney took after he assumed command of 5th Air Force was to hit Rabaul from Port Moresby at night, and successfully so. One reason you can pound Port Moresby in retaliation as the Japanese player in the game is because your fighters are too strong, and then, of course, in general the air model is out of whack, so at times the Japanese medium bombers record silly bombing results. I haven't seen much long-range destructive capability yet of these medium bombers at long range and against decent fighter opposition, but if (probably when) I do then that'll just be one more nail in the old WitP coffin as far as I'm concerned.

I've posted the USAAF bombing survey twice before. That gives you loss figures of heavies in the POA. By year, and counting all causes (enemy fighter, AA fire and operational) it runs 6 losses in 1942, 23 in 1943, 38 in 1944 and 30 in 1945. The survey might well be in error, but those are the official figures for what they're worth.

According to the survey, in 1942 only 2 heavies were lost to enemy aircraft and 4 operationally. In 1943 17 were shot down by enemy fighters, 1 was dropped by flak, 5 lost operationally. In 1944 the sub-totals ran 14-9-15 respectively, in 1945 7-14-9. The grand total for the entire war of heavy-bomber losses comes to 97. And that's all the survey says.

I do have reason to wonder about the figures for 1942. Only 100 combat sorties are listed for this entire period, which has to be an error. It could be that these statistics only account for 5th Air Force activity, a command which wasn't in place until September of 1942. I don't know. All the survey provides is the bottom line.

Over the course of the entire war, 14,043 heavy-bomber combat sorties were carried out: 100 in 1942, 1,014 in 1943, 6,720 in 1944, 6,209 during the final months.

In any event, stock scenario 15 has too many B-17s on the map, and by a goodly number. Whose decision that was I don't know, but he ought to be shot. On the other hand, many Allied planes are downgraded to a serious degree, while Bettys and Nells tend to be too powerful, the Zero entirely over-rated, etc. Indeed, the air model, taken as a whole, makes little sense.



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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Tristanjohn »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

rtrapasso,

The developers did listen to feedback regarding A2A during the UV days. A2A was changed numerous times, including a version that specifically toned back combat casualties and included in the combat animation msgs, X plane running low on ammo.

The version generated many complaints by the public forum as being too anemic overall so the developers changed A2A back to a more intensive level.

Well, now, isn't that typical of how this project has gone? You decide to take feedback on a forum from people who mainly haven't a clue, who, in the balance of things, wish most of all to play a kind of PTO shooter, and then down the road use that as the excuse why the model doesn't behave properly. I love it. [:D]


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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Nikademus »

Actually, one of the first actions General Kenney took after he assumed command of 5th Air Force was to hit Rabaul from Port Moresby at night, and successfully so.

The early raids i have read up on produced negligable effects.
One reason you can pound Port Moresby in retaliation as the Japanese player in the game is because your fighters are too strong, and then, of course, in general the air model is out of whack, so at times the Japanese medium bombers record silly bombing results.

Nope. I pounded PM because i had prepared for the attack ahead of time. My last PBEM opponent used the same tactic while i was weak and had no counter-force in place. He did a great deal of damage. As for my Mediums producing silly results. Kaiser73, my opponent would disagree. Often my mediums get very mediocre results due to their modest loades coupled with my caution in flying them at higher altitude
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Well, now, isn't that typical of how this project has gone? You decide to take feedback on a forum from people who mainly haven't a clue, who, in the balance of things, wish most of all to play a kind of PTO shooter, and then down the road use that as the excuse why the model doesn't behave properly. I love it. [:D]

posting derogatory comments about other posters who have provided feedback about the game wont hide the fact that you were 100% wrong in your comment about the developers not listening nor that they wern't aware that a fighter has only so much ammo.

I love it [:D] [8|]
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

You know why? I'll tell you why.

*Because of incessant Allied fanboy whines that their B17s be made easier to supply, maintain and service than your garden variety lawnmover.*

That's what I suspected .. the opinion expressed was not based on data but instead on an emotional reaction. Thanks for the clarification.

[:D][:D]

By this point in WITP's development cycle (or life cycle) nearly all opinions are based on "emotional reaction". Your first post in this thread was based on feeling "cheated" by game results, thus, emotional reaction. But true to "Allied Fanboy Manifesto" you don't recognise it as such (OK, this was a joke, sort of.)

It was not based on some scientific formula that would say exactly, to fifth decimal point, what losses should side A suffer if attacked by X B17s.

Not that such "scientific method" could ever be developed, anyway, because there never were *nearly* as much 100+ B17 strikes in real history, as average Allied WITP player makes in first 6 months of the game.

If you really want "realistic" B17s, start with their availability, servicability and maintenance levels, THEN when you get those at realistically low levels, work your way up the realism ladder and address their *bombloads* and range. THEN when you're done with that, you can start addressing their durability and/or vulnerability to Zeros.

If you think biggest, first and foremost problem with B17s is their vulnerability to Zeros, then I feel I have every right to label your posts "emotional reaction", and "Allied fanboyism" as well (most dangerous disease on WITP boards overall, in my strictly personal opinion).

O.
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Lord_Calidor »

With player defined upgrades, has anyone tried upgrading more units to Japanese heavy fighters, specifically with upward firing guns (Nick, Dinah, Myrt...) and deploying them against Allied heavy bombers?

Historically, considering their numbers, they did well, but since there were just a handful of them built, theye never made larger impact.

(Hm, most of them are night fighters, not sure if fighters can upgrade to them. However, Dinah is an ordinary fighter, so all IJA fighter units should be able to upgrade)
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RE: B17 Losses too heavy

Post by Nikademus »

I've been disapointed in the Nick's preformance. I'm wondering if this is because part of it's firepower is not located on the forward firing plane. I havn't done enough tests though to really give a definitive opinion. I certainly havn't had a chance yet to test it under the current version or under my mod. Certainly Zeros are having a hard time now [;)]
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