Surrender of Australia in WITP

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

If you have the Aussie government surrender and want to make the game somewhat realistic, you would have to put in some sort of garrison requirement as in China. Lest those Aussies start dry gulching the local Japanese admistration.

How many Japanese troops do you think it would take to garrison Australia? 6 Japanese per Aussie (so the Aussie had 2 Japanese following him around on each of he 3 eight hour shifts in the day)? More?

Anyhow, I can't imagine the Australian Government signing a peace treaty even if run out of town (Belgium was occupied for all of WW I and never surrendered officially) and I can't imagine Japan having the resources to conquer or garrison a country of that size. Were they so foolish to grab a chunk of Nortern Australia (Darwin and environs maybe) all they would get is one more sump to suck resources they desperately need elsewhere.

The Japanese Navy had a number of scenarios regarding the invasion of Australia, but lacked the troops to do it on their own. The Japanese Army believed it would take at least ten divisions to garrison the country, and neither had the troops to spare nor were they interested in this project.

In WitP, a ten division garrison sounds about right.

[Speedysteve]

Mog i've seen you type "Mandark laugh" before. Hope i'm not not being tres tres stupid here but what on earth is a Mandark?

Steven

[captskillet]

Thats why it took so long to break out of Normandy. We put the best allied divisions with more air power than could be dreamed of into an area largely defended by low quality Germans(initially)

I wouldn't call the 12th SS, Panzer Lehr, 21st Panzer, 17th SS low quality units and they were all there within a few days if not hours (21st PZ and 12th SS)

What other Westernised Democracy has anyone seen fight to the death

I'd say UK's fight early on in WWII before we entered and France had fallen was pretty close to "to the death"!

[String]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Mog i've seen you type "Mandark laugh" before. Hope i'm not not being tres tres stupid here but what on earth is a Mandark?

Steven

the one on the left

[rtrapasso]

This is exactly what happened. That Montgomery expended SO many lives doing it, and a lot of blunders were committed in lower command echelons (because the overall quality of British GOC's in Normandy was abysmal), doesn't detract from the fact that Montgomery's forces executed their part in the Battle of Normandy exactly as they were meant to.

Only if you define "exactly as they were meant to" in terms of drawing the bulk of panzers. Monty kept announcing objective after objective which failed - i don't think that normally one would say the "excecuted their plan exactly as they were meant to" in terms of his stated objectives (Caen on D-Day, Caen by D+1, Caen by D+3, etc., etc.)

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: String

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Mog i've seen you type "Mandark laugh" before. Hope i'm not not being tres tres stupid here but what on earth is a Mandark?

Steven

the one on the left

Thanks for that String but still clueless. Is this an American cartoon?

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: captskillet

Thats why it took so long to break out of Normandy. We put the best allied divisions with more air power than could be dreamed of into an area largely defended by low quality Germans(initially)

I wouldn't call the 12th SS, Panzer Lehr, 21st Panzer, 17th SS low quality units and they were all there within a few days if not hours (21st PZ and 12th SS)

Have to agree that there were some, what would be classed as, high quality units there - 1SS, 9SS, 10SS, 12SS, Panzer Lehr, 2SS, FJ's etc. were also lots of very 'average' troops in infantry divisions and some poor quality troops in 'static divisions'. I'd say the typical hode podge of German OOB. Top notch with poor elements too. Also even though some of these took weeks to get to the area the forces that were in the area managed to contain the Allies. IMHO almost entirely down to the terrain they were fighting over.

Steven

[Griswel]

As for the idea that Democracies will not fight to the bitter end I would like to bring up the American civil war, where the Confederacy did exactly that and the Union fought in a way that Hastings says is impossible for a Democracy to sustain.

Yes, but wer were fighting ourselves, internicine fights are always much nastier than fighting strangers.

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: madmickey

Monty was stupid enough not to realize that you had to clear the Schedlt estuary to open Antwerp.

He probably knew that very well, but it would have taken troops away from his glorious, and all-British charge across the Rhine and onto the North German plain. Montgomery had a monstrous ego, just like Patton, McArthur and other generals.

The Allied needed a big port to advance and Antwerp was it. It amazes that Monty was so stupid about it.


"As early as September 8th, 1944, Winston Churchill had written to his chiefs-of-staff about the importance of the Walcheren area and the port of Antwerp. September was also the month that the British started to suffer from supply problems – what was referred to as a “supply famine”. Ironically, it was the sheer success of the Allies that had brought about this problem. The Germans had put up stiff resistance around Normandy – but it had also led to the loss of the German VII Army. Once the break out from Normandy occurred, the Allies sped forward far faster than they had planned for. Paris was freed 55 days ahead of schedule and by mid-September, the Americans were approaching Aachen, which they had expected to do by mid-May 1945. Such an advance put a huge strain on the supplies that were still primarily coming in via Cherbourg. Some supplies were flown in, but only if they could be carried by plane – and this greatly limited what was carried. The American ‘Red Ball Express’ (heavy lorries converted to carry stores) started in late August. But the Germans still held out at Calais, Boulogne, Dunkirk and Le Harve, ports that could have been used

The capture of Antwerp would have solved all supply problems. The port could handle 1,000 ships at a time weighing up to 19,000 tons each. Antwerp had 10 square miles of docks, 20 miles of water front, and 600 cranes. Senior Allied commanders counted on Antwerp handing 40,000 tons of supplies a day – when it was captured. Antwerp was about 80 miles from the open sea on the River Scheldt. Between the port and the sea were the islands of Walcheren and North Beveland and South Beveland that was attached to mainland Holland by a small isthmus – all held by the Germans who could do a great deal to disrupt the flow of shipping into the port.

On September 3rd, Montgomery ordered General Dempsey, head of the British 2nd Army, to occupy Antwerp. The 11th Armoured Division did just this on September 4th. There was some resistance but, with the help of the Belgium Resistance, this was crushed with some ease. However, holding Antwerp was not enough. The Allies needed to control the West and East Scheldt – areas of sea to the north-west of Antwerp.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/an ... ar_two.htm

[Terminus]

Like I said earlier, Montgomery was fixated on Market-Garden at this time, which swallowed up ALL of British 2nd Army. It was HIS BIG MOMENT (tm), the time to vindicate his "One Thrust" strategy, and a piffling port on the Belgian coast wasn't going to take that away from him.

Montgomery wasn't stupid, but, like Churchill, Patton, McArthur, Rommel and MANY others, was desperate to look good in history.

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Like I said earlier, Montgomery was fixated on Market-Garden at this time, which swallowed up ALL of British 2nd Army. It was HIS BIG MOMENT (tm), the time to vindicate his "One Thrust" strategy, and a piffling port on the Belgian coast wasn't going to take that away from him.

Montgomery wasn't stupid, but, like Churchill, Patton, McArthur, Rommel and MANY others, was desperate to look good in history.

The order to capture antwerp was September 3 this was before Operation market garden was planned.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: madmickey

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Like I said earlier, Montgomery was fixated on Market-Garden at this time, which swallowed up ALL of British 2nd Army. It was HIS BIG MOMENT (tm), the time to vindicate his "One Thrust" strategy, and a piffling port on the Belgian coast wasn't going to take that away from him.

Montgomery wasn't stupid, but, like Churchill, Patton, McArthur, Rommel and MANY others, was desperate to look good in history.

The order to capture antwerp was September 3 this was before Operation market garden was planned.

This may be true, but if you have troops earmarked for your big operation that is going to secure your place in history, why would you want to use them for something as "useless" as securing the Scheldt estuary...[8|]

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso



This may be true, but if you have troops earmarked for your big operation that is going to secure your place in history, why would you want to use them for something as "useless" as securing the Scheldt estuary...[8|]

Capturing the estuary should have been easy in early September.
"September 4, 1944

Belgium
The British 11th Armored Division races into Antwerp. And the prize is doubled: Members of the Belgian resistance, employed as engineers at the port, stop the Germans from destroying the port facilities. Still, the port can’t be used until the banks of the Scheldt Estuary (54 miles long and 3 miles wide at its mouth) are cleared of German forces.

To clear the estuary’s banks, all the British need to do is cross the Albert Canal east of Antwerp, drive a few miles north to the base of the South Beveland Peninsula, and then continue along the north bank of the Scheldt Estuary. Standing in the 11th Armored’s way is a single German division (the 719th) “composed entirely of elderly gentlemen who hitherto had been guarding the north coast of Holland and had never heard a shot fired in anger.” But Montgomery orders the 11th Armored to halt in order to rest and refit; the field marshal wants all XXX Corps units for another operation - a drive around the West Wall (Siegfried Line), over the Rhine, and on into the heart of Germany.

Eisenhower has been clear with Montgomery; making Antwerp a working port is the paramount objective of the 21st Army Group. Any other operations must be subsidiary. Montgomery assures the supreme commander that the 21st Army Group can handle both clearing the Scheldt Estuary and his proposed drive around the West Wall. But in one of the greatest missed opportunities of World War II, Montgomery does not commit the forces necessary to clear the Scheldt Estuary?"
The failure to capture the north bank of the estuary is compounded; it leaves an escape route open for the German Fifteenth Army. Over the next 20 days, more than 85,000 men, 6,000 vehicles, and 600 guns are ferried to the north bank of the Scheldt Estuary, moved down the Beveland Peninsula, and on into defensive positions from Antwerp to Arnhem."

http://home.wanadoo.nl/cclinks/abtf/septem~1.html

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: madmickey

But Montgomery orders the 11th Armored to halt in order to rest and refit; the field marshal wants all XXX Corps units for another operation - a drive around the West Wall (Siegfried Line), over the Rhine, and on into the heart of Germany.

Eisenhower has been clear with Montgomery; making Antwerp a working port is the paramount objective of the 21st Army Group.

I don't see where the argument is: I'm not disputing that Montgomery did the tactically unsound thing, I'm saying that he didn't do it because he was stupid.

It was all an ego thing: Montgomery was convinced that he was a better general than all the US generals in theatre, and thought he should be in overall command of land forces as he'd been during D-Day.

Montgomery got a very rude awakening in late December 1944, when he sent a letter to this effect to Eisenhower, who promptly sent a signal to the Combined Chiefs of Staff, saying "it's either him or me". It came as a brutal shock to Montgomery when he realised that he was going to be out of a job shortly, and only the mediation of his Chief of Staff, de Guingand, allowed time to apologize and soothe some very ruffled US feathers.

[madmickey]

As in my previous post it would have been easy to capture the estuary in early September. That was stupid by Monty. Ignoring the importance of supply and Antwerp was stupid. The Market Garden Plan with no allowance for enemy was stupid. Even if they captured the Arhnem Bridges the idea that a single narrow thrust that could have been easily cutoff by the Germans was stupid. The British never used Arnhem area in Holland as a way to attack Germany later in the war.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

This may be true, but if you have troops earmarked for your big operation that is going to secure your place in history, why would you want to use them for something as "useless" as securing the Scheldt estuary...[8|]

"Useless"? Having the largest port in Europe in functioning condition within a few miles of your front lines, and solving all your supply difficulties in a single stroke? "Useless"?

[bradfordkay]

Mike, I think that rtpasso's "roll eyes" was based on his assumption that Monty felt that clearing the Scheldt was a useless waste of resources. In other words, he feels that Monty was unaware of the threat that having the Germans in the Scheldt was to the use of Antwerp as a major supply base.

[Speedysteve]

Anything on this Mandark laugh thing? Us cartoon? Its bugging me now [;)]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Mike, I think that rtpasso's "roll eyes" was based on his assumption that Monty felt that clearing the Scheldt was a useless waste of resources. In other words, he feels that Monty was unaware of the threat that having the Germans in the Scheldt was to the use of Antwerp as a major supply base.

Yup - that (the eye rolls), and putting "useless" in quotes. Alas, even with smileys, things don't come across well sometimes. And, if you read fast sometimes (as i have been guilty of) - well, at least i have made the mistake of coming out 180 degrees off in what was said. Mea culpa!

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Anything on this Mandark laugh thing? Us cartoon? Its bugging me now [;)]

It is an American cartoon, "Dexter's Laboratory", I think it's called. Mandark is probably the hero (Dexter's) archnemesisisisisis...