Need some help with Russia
Moderators: Joel Billings, JanSorensen
Need some help with Russia
In my Multiplayer game i always see my Soviets getting Crushed by a combine Axis/Jap attack and just trying to hold on is im finding very difficult,in a second game my oppoent has hit russia within the first three turns on both fronts and there just doenst seem to be anything i can do,as my alies without the USA struggle to be able to provided much of a distraction tha early on.
RE: Need some help with Russia
glad to know another player in the pacific region! as it sounds that over 90% of the players are from either US or Europe.
i have two pbems going using the double-slamming russia strategy, i play the germany in the first one and the Allies in the second.
imo, unless u can build up an army in the far east, large enough to make it too costly for the IJN to attack (in terms of losses and supplies) there is little russia alone can do. esp an early simultaneous double slam.
but i think that gives the WA tons of options to pick his battle, esp in the Med as its not possible to do a 41 russia campaign and take Spain and GB at the same time w/o sacrificing the kill rate and penetration of the russia campaign.
unless the IJN is doing particularly good and really concentrate all resources to land battles, given the fuel costs involved, i dont think IJN can go too far with a huge army. and dont forget u still got CHN to force the IJN to keep a certain no. of garrison in CHN, esp an aggressive CHN player can be annoying for the IJN.
so imo, the reply to the "double-slam russia" strategy is an aggressive Allies with the "early WA second front" strategy always in his mind.
AN
i have two pbems going using the double-slamming russia strategy, i play the germany in the first one and the Allies in the second.
imo, unless u can build up an army in the far east, large enough to make it too costly for the IJN to attack (in terms of losses and supplies) there is little russia alone can do. esp an early simultaneous double slam.
but i think that gives the WA tons of options to pick his battle, esp in the Med as its not possible to do a 41 russia campaign and take Spain and GB at the same time w/o sacrificing the kill rate and penetration of the russia campaign.
unless the IJN is doing particularly good and really concentrate all resources to land battles, given the fuel costs involved, i dont think IJN can go too far with a huge army. and dont forget u still got CHN to force the IJN to keep a certain no. of garrison in CHN, esp an aggressive CHN player can be annoying for the IJN.
so imo, the reply to the "double-slam russia" strategy is an aggressive Allies with the "early WA second front" strategy always in his mind.
AN
RE: Need some help with Russia
Yes i agree,i almost took Italy during his soviet offensive,but the Soviets are in a hopeless situation
RE: Need some help with Russia
for russia, hold at all cost and make the germans bleed ... is the only way to go.
RE: Need some help with Russia
Well I can not stay out of this. Here are my 2 cents. I am playing the Soviets in one game and have double slammed them in other games.[:D]
In my game as the Soviets, I took the approach of most units in a location as possible to prevent first turn capture. The Axis can only build so many units, and they tend to concentrate on tanks, subs and bombers, all take some time to build. During this period all the factories in the line of fire for the first attack build militia. This provides 2 per turn per location. Normally you are attacked in Mid to late 41, so you have 5 turns or so of building which amounts to 10 units per location. This will force the Germans to concentrate on which one location to take out, Kiev is the most popular as it is easy to get to. The rest require a tank and air attack only, which will not be enough. There is serious merrit in building flak to move on the first turn to cover your factories and ground units. Do not move factories, it prevents you from moving your reserves to the front to build up really big unit groups. Most likely the Germans have taken out the Caucuses so the lost factors are not worth moving as you have not enough resources. If you hold Leningrad, take out Finland. The Japanese will be hard pressed to take out Vlad, if you built 10 militia, simply as they do not have enough units. Even worse if they try it in 40 as China is still a strong force.
The real savior to the Soviets is how aggressive the Western Allies are. I have played a number of games as the Germans and no matter how hard I try I loose the Med eventually to the British, usually starting in Summer 40, leaving my North African troops to find their own supplies. My opponent has been very aggressive each game in attacking the Italians in the central Med. The results have been in his favor almost all the time. Not until 41 when the Subs get to a survivable level can you start to fight back. Air power is of little value to the Germans as hitting ships other than transports is very hard. This leaves the Germans with an open Med front and a possible Italian surrender. The British should be prepared to exploit this the moment the Soviets are attacked. The prelude to this is to take out Sardina on the first turn and then secure the central Med. Also building up the CAG to a 2 or 3 anti sub roll and posting them outside of France will reduce the affectiveness of the Subs as they risk death from the planes. This requires fighter cover, but that is not hard to provide. Unless the Germans build lots of fighter to counter this it will be very effective. If the Germans are building fighters for this then they are not building other items for the East Front.
You really have to watch the German builds to get an idea of what he is working on. The allies have to send you supplies from Day one, and to China from day one as well. You need about 120 supplies from the Western Allies by summer 41. This will free up your production to concentrate on units and research. What to research, well this is hard. I have spent most of my Soviet games working on tanks and AAA, but I am of the mind that sole research in Infantry defense if probable better. With Armour you get 3 defense for every evasion you reseach, you start at 8 and can get to 9 no problem. You then have to research attack, which is seven and needs to get to 9 or so. There is a small advantage in building attack verses defense if the defense only gets 3 per evasion, as you get an extra 1/2 per average attack roll. Now with Infantry you get 4 defense for each evasion, which is a 1/2 advantage over an attack roll. So having 8 evasion infantry is worth 32 defense, while a 10 evasion tank is worth 30, see how the infantry starts to have the advantage. The Soviets start at 4 evasion infantry and you need to get it to 7 or 8. It will take 3 or 4 turns to get to 5, then another 3-4 turns to 6 and so on. If you get to 6 or more you stand a reasonable chance at survival and if you can hold on you can get to 7 and then to the magic 8, after 8 you are very difficult to kill or damage. This all takes time though, so I am not sure you will have enough time if you get the double slam, which is why I go back to using militia instead of infantry as research time remains low for infantry, where if you build infantry research time starts to go up quickly.
Lots to digest but all of this can help to make the Soviets survive.
In my game as the Soviets, I took the approach of most units in a location as possible to prevent first turn capture. The Axis can only build so many units, and they tend to concentrate on tanks, subs and bombers, all take some time to build. During this period all the factories in the line of fire for the first attack build militia. This provides 2 per turn per location. Normally you are attacked in Mid to late 41, so you have 5 turns or so of building which amounts to 10 units per location. This will force the Germans to concentrate on which one location to take out, Kiev is the most popular as it is easy to get to. The rest require a tank and air attack only, which will not be enough. There is serious merrit in building flak to move on the first turn to cover your factories and ground units. Do not move factories, it prevents you from moving your reserves to the front to build up really big unit groups. Most likely the Germans have taken out the Caucuses so the lost factors are not worth moving as you have not enough resources. If you hold Leningrad, take out Finland. The Japanese will be hard pressed to take out Vlad, if you built 10 militia, simply as they do not have enough units. Even worse if they try it in 40 as China is still a strong force.
The real savior to the Soviets is how aggressive the Western Allies are. I have played a number of games as the Germans and no matter how hard I try I loose the Med eventually to the British, usually starting in Summer 40, leaving my North African troops to find their own supplies. My opponent has been very aggressive each game in attacking the Italians in the central Med. The results have been in his favor almost all the time. Not until 41 when the Subs get to a survivable level can you start to fight back. Air power is of little value to the Germans as hitting ships other than transports is very hard. This leaves the Germans with an open Med front and a possible Italian surrender. The British should be prepared to exploit this the moment the Soviets are attacked. The prelude to this is to take out Sardina on the first turn and then secure the central Med. Also building up the CAG to a 2 or 3 anti sub roll and posting them outside of France will reduce the affectiveness of the Subs as they risk death from the planes. This requires fighter cover, but that is not hard to provide. Unless the Germans build lots of fighter to counter this it will be very effective. If the Germans are building fighters for this then they are not building other items for the East Front.
You really have to watch the German builds to get an idea of what he is working on. The allies have to send you supplies from Day one, and to China from day one as well. You need about 120 supplies from the Western Allies by summer 41. This will free up your production to concentrate on units and research. What to research, well this is hard. I have spent most of my Soviet games working on tanks and AAA, but I am of the mind that sole research in Infantry defense if probable better. With Armour you get 3 defense for every evasion you reseach, you start at 8 and can get to 9 no problem. You then have to research attack, which is seven and needs to get to 9 or so. There is a small advantage in building attack verses defense if the defense only gets 3 per evasion, as you get an extra 1/2 per average attack roll. Now with Infantry you get 4 defense for each evasion, which is a 1/2 advantage over an attack roll. So having 8 evasion infantry is worth 32 defense, while a 10 evasion tank is worth 30, see how the infantry starts to have the advantage. The Soviets start at 4 evasion infantry and you need to get it to 7 or 8. It will take 3 or 4 turns to get to 5, then another 3-4 turns to 6 and so on. If you get to 6 or more you stand a reasonable chance at survival and if you can hold on you can get to 7 and then to the magic 8, after 8 you are very difficult to kill or damage. This all takes time though, so I am not sure you will have enough time if you get the double slam, which is why I go back to using militia instead of infantry as research time remains low for infantry, where if you build infantry research time starts to go up quickly.
Lots to digest but all of this can help to make the Soviets survive.
RE: Need some help with Russia
Well said Marcel!
The key in Russia is getting extra units in the front lines for the first German attack, and making those units stronger so they'll actually do something!
Building flak in Kiev is essential! Build troops in Leningrad, Bellorussia, Kharkov and even in Vladivostoc. Like 2 Inf, 1 Arty and 1 Flak at least. Build them early! To prevent getting caught short by a sneaky quick attack. Sure Germany will still take most of those Provinces, but it'll hurt him! Pop out a few Militia on the turn before he attacks only, they're pretty useless, eh?
Getting supplies from the WA is essential to this, because if you're building supplies, you're not researching! pump your Inf up to 7/6 asap! I don't worry much about the Tanks, they can take care of themselves
but get the Arty up to 7 attack at least!~ 8 is even better. That way you can at least dent a few Panzers.
Airforce? A couple of fighters perhaps, an extra Tac? It'll keep the Germans honest (they'll have to protect their bombers & arty at least a little) but otherwise is optional.
A final thought is: Build up Evasion! Wether you attack or defend, keeping your troops alive at the end of the day will win you more battles than over-killing the enemy.
The key in Russia is getting extra units in the front lines for the first German attack, and making those units stronger so they'll actually do something!
Building flak in Kiev is essential! Build troops in Leningrad, Bellorussia, Kharkov and even in Vladivostoc. Like 2 Inf, 1 Arty and 1 Flak at least. Build them early! To prevent getting caught short by a sneaky quick attack. Sure Germany will still take most of those Provinces, but it'll hurt him! Pop out a few Militia on the turn before he attacks only, they're pretty useless, eh?
Getting supplies from the WA is essential to this, because if you're building supplies, you're not researching! pump your Inf up to 7/6 asap! I don't worry much about the Tanks, they can take care of themselves
but get the Arty up to 7 attack at least!~ 8 is even better. That way you can at least dent a few Panzers.Airforce? A couple of fighters perhaps, an extra Tac? It'll keep the Germans honest (they'll have to protect their bombers & arty at least a little) but otherwise is optional.
A final thought is: Build up Evasion! Wether you attack or defend, keeping your troops alive at the end of the day will win you more battles than over-killing the enemy.
No Will but Thy Will
No Law but the Laws You make
No Law but the Laws You make
RE: Need some help with Russia
I disagree that flak in kiev is useful. as primarily an axis player, if I see flak in kiev I'll send in my own flak to kill the planes in kiev. planes are a lot more useful in attacking other provinces, so its a lot more frustrating to see flak in krakhow or rostov than kiev.The key in Russia is getting extra units in the front lines for the first German attack, and making those units stronger so they'll actually do something!
Building flak in Kiev is essential!
the few times I've played as russia i've found the best defense was tanks in the front. it seems very hard to kill russian tanks with an early german attack (unless lots of german units or artillery is used). when the tanks retreat they just keep building up a bigger stack the next province back.
I think the idea of using militia is interesting and will definitly blunt the german advance on the first turn. However when I've done very early attacks against russia (fall40) militia and infantry are so weak that its a joke. one opponent commented repeatedly through one of our games that his large attacks were being repelled too easily at large losses of his militia. therefore I think the only benifit to building militia is to save russia from a first turn overwhelming attack. 2-3 turns into the german attack, there needs to be something other than infantry and militia to fight them with.
RE: Need some help with Russia
As a primary Western Allies player I find that one of the best moves for the Western Allies when faced with the Russian squeeze is to make a move on Finland-Norway. How so? Its common-place for the Axis player to take his ENTIRE Finland stack following the caputre of Lenningrad and move forward to cut off Mursmak Lend-Lease. Respond by capturing what will either be the weakly guarded or neutral Norway. Due to Finland/Norways rough nature, the Germans cannot move and cut off the attack the next turn, giving you another turn to throw in more units (primarly land now, as you'll need to have mostly flak and fighters from the turn before, as your still vulnerable to German airpower). A stack of ten or so units can dance around and distract the Germans -- simply because if they advance further you can size Finland without fear of retribution. If you're feeling sneaky, use a raid into Finland to destroy the resource point and then leave, as no combat will be declared. One might not consider this a worthwhile move, but consider, it will take at least one German unit to recapture Finland, and assuming Germany doesn't repair the railroads in the north, that unit will most likley never catch up to the front again.
RE: Need some help with Russia
I have found that the advantage of militia is not that they kill anyting, because they do not, but that they give you the numbers you need to force a retreat when attacked or attacking. They also make good casualty takers. I have used this to my advantage in my current game as the Soviets. The Germans are having a tough time as they have a lack of total units, which make it easy to surround their large stacks. Given that my infantry are not great attackers either, I use the militia to make my attack succeed in retreating the surrounded units.
Early deployment of Infantry is a waste as they die as fast as militia, especially if you are attacked in 40 or spring 41. Better to have more units that can repel the initial attack. The only real problem as the Soviets is the probable loss of resources in the Caucuses and possible Grozny as well. After the first turn you can move in enough forces and flak to make it hard to repeat the process but you will be required to use up 12 factory points of supply to rebuild the 6 resources, unless the allies have sent you 100+ supplies and regularly feed you 30+ you will find you have dificulty keeping up in supply and units and research. If the allies can send you 30 supplies a turn from the start you will have 150 or so by the time a 41 attack happens in spring. Why is this important, because you would have to spend 24 production points to build the supplies, instead you can use then to build units and research. This may seem like allot of supplies for the allies to give but you can afford 6 production points from north america (canada/us) so that you can make the Soviets as strong as possible, which will go allot farther then the research points you loose for doing this.
Well just my 2 cents.
Early deployment of Infantry is a waste as they die as fast as militia, especially if you are attacked in 40 or spring 41. Better to have more units that can repel the initial attack. The only real problem as the Soviets is the probable loss of resources in the Caucuses and possible Grozny as well. After the first turn you can move in enough forces and flak to make it hard to repeat the process but you will be required to use up 12 factory points of supply to rebuild the 6 resources, unless the allies have sent you 100+ supplies and regularly feed you 30+ you will find you have dificulty keeping up in supply and units and research. If the allies can send you 30 supplies a turn from the start you will have 150 or so by the time a 41 attack happens in spring. Why is this important, because you would have to spend 24 production points to build the supplies, instead you can use then to build units and research. This may seem like allot of supplies for the allies to give but you can afford 6 production points from north america (canada/us) so that you can make the Soviets as strong as possible, which will go allot farther then the research points you loose for doing this.
Well just my 2 cents.
RE: Need some help with Russia
You guys want to help USSR?
As WA, build your RDF, research paras up to 8,ev & LA, LA Hvys to 6, take Norway....usually pretty easy. Keep the fleet handy, able to move into Baltic and back in one turn, add a couple of Subs for recon.
If you get a chance, take Finland as discussed, but target Denmark/LCs, using your researched fighters to sweep from England/Scotland. Drop in if the Axis fail to garrison adequately and sweep the Baltic with your fleet.
You will definitely get the Axis' attention with that RDF making them lose focus on USSR, spreading their forces. If they deploy to recapture, remove your forces via transports and play the ole "In and Out" game, constantly threatening.
Pretty soon, the USSR will be able to hold its own, and then......well you know, .......... "The Rest of the Story".
As WA, build your RDF, research paras up to 8,ev & LA, LA Hvys to 6, take Norway....usually pretty easy. Keep the fleet handy, able to move into Baltic and back in one turn, add a couple of Subs for recon.
If you get a chance, take Finland as discussed, but target Denmark/LCs, using your researched fighters to sweep from England/Scotland. Drop in if the Axis fail to garrison adequately and sweep the Baltic with your fleet.
You will definitely get the Axis' attention with that RDF making them lose focus on USSR, spreading their forces. If they deploy to recapture, remove your forces via transports and play the ole "In and Out" game, constantly threatening.
Pretty soon, the USSR will be able to hold its own, and then......well you know, .......... "The Rest of the Story".
RE: Need some help with Russia
You can do this without Paras at 8 evasion/Land Attack. [:-] It would be better to have your infantry at 8 evasion and 8 land attack.[:)] Bombers upped to 6/7 land attack will be enough to clear out the usual small garrison of Denmark. Then you invade for free and then pile in the troops.[:D] As for clearing the Baltic, allied subs work wonders for that, and they cost you no supplies, which you should be sending to the Soviets, from the start of the game.[:-] Upping the evasion of subs is much cheaper and more profitable then working on Paras, which take a long time to build and require heavy bombers to be effective. Subs are slightly faster to build and are very effective. This also applies to killing Japanese transports with allied subs. Also the Germans/Japanese never up their sub defenses, that is the anti-sub rating of there plans or ships, so they are no great threat.[:)]
ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey
You guys want to help USSR?
As WA, build your RDF, research paras up to 8,ev & LA, LA Hvys to 6, take Norway....usually pretty easy. Keep the fleet handy, able to move into Baltic and back in one turn, add a couple of Subs for recon.
If you get a chance, take Finland as discussed, but target Denmark/LCs, using your researched fighters to sweep from England/Scotland. Drop in if the Axis fail to garrison adequately and sweep the Baltic with your fleet.
You will definitely get the Axis' attention with that RDF making them lose focus on USSR, spreading their forces. If they deploy to recapture, remove your forces via transports and play the ole "In and Out" game, constantly threatening.
Pretty soon, the USSR will be able to hold its own, and then......well you know, .......... "The Rest of the Story".