Spain

[carnifex]

Yeah, that's my problem as well. Hitler wouldn't have invaded Spain. He would never say to himself oh let me cakewalk over the Spaniards because I need Gibraltar and my subs need a new base. That's ridiculous. Spain was a fascist country which enjoyed Germany's support and favor. Franco would have to drive to Berlin and bitch slap Hitler like a punk in front of his entire crew to warrant invasion.

Just wasn't going to happen. Spain should be prohibitively expensive.

It shouldn't be the Spanish Option or the Spanish Strategy. It should be the Spanish Gambit.

[Daykeras]

Well I suggest making it a double line to reduce it's use for the Allies, not for the Germans. The germans still get to attack the next turn, but if they don't attack, that makes it so the Allies don't really get a great forward base in Europe. I mean, it's good... it's just not great.

I would like for Allies to get partisan garrisons to deal with when they attack all neutrals. That might even it out a bit.

[batou]

I am curious how people think the proposed changes will affect game balance. Will it be too easy for the WA to attack the continent?

[TOCarroll]

I just gotta drop in my 2 cents worth.....[:D] In the REAL WW2 there were valad reasons for Germany to invade Spain. There was no way Franco (Spanish Dictator) would allow the Germans access, so to take Gibraltar, an invasion of Spain would have been necessary.

Grand Admiral Raeder, Herman Georing, Field Marshall Rommel, and other German military leaders felt that the best way to win WW2 was to knock England out of the war by means of capturing her Medeterranian assetts. They reccomended taking Gibraltar, Suez, and the Middle East. This would provide the Germans with a hell of a lot of resources (not just oil...Spain had tungsten), and eliminate the need to invade the Soviet Union. [:)] . Malta was also included in the objective list, as was Crete, but with both ends of the Med. closed, Britan could not support either garrison. The sucessful completion of this plan would leave Turkey surrounded, and Russia (who was providing Germany with a hell of a lot more resources through trade than they ever extracted after 1941), flanked on 3 fronts (Poland, Finland, and the Middle East.

Hitler's obsession on attacking Russia on racial and ideological grounds was the reason Germany initiated nhostilities. Although many generals supported Barbarossa, remember that disagreeing with der Furher was not good for your career[:-]. Theese same generals would have jumped at the chance to avoid conflict with the Soviet Union, and finish off England.

[Harrybanana]

I agree there were valid historical/military reasons for the Germans to invade Spain and several of Hitler's military advisers recommended it's conquest. But Hitler, for all his depravity, was aware of the political cost of such a move. Don't forget McArthur wanted to bomb China for military reasons too, but Truman overruled him for political ones.

No one is suggesting that the option to invade Spain should be removed. But the consequences should be gretaer than they are. The same generals who were advocating an attack on Spain would have been appalled if Hitler ordered them to do so only from the small portion of Occupied France which bordered on Spain. The only feasible way to invade Spain would be through Vichy France. I doubt the Vichy units would have put up any resistance, but Germany would have been deprived of there use.

As for the US not caring about a German Invasion of Spain, well that's a great unknown and all we can do is speculate. But IMHO the average US citizen would have been very alarmed to see that the Germans didn't treat their friends any better than their enemies. It would aslo have had repercussions on Germany's relations with it's other allies such as Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria.

[kverdon]

At least in games against the AI, invading Spain is no-brainer. It and Gibralter let you ignore N. Africa as the resources you get from Spain and Yugoslavia make up for the loss eventual Loss of N. Africa. Having said that I too agree that something should be done to make the German player think twice about it.

Harrybanna may be onto something here. What if (and you could make this optional) if Germany invades Spain then Vichy France, Hungary and Czech. become neutral contries as they wonder if they are next? Germany could still invade and occupy them, adding them back into the fold. You might want to do this instead of the RP penalty for invading a neutral. Having V. France, Hungary and Czech go neutral would not be the end of the world for Germany as they all could be retaken fairly easily but it would be move that would make the German player pause and think about it. A possible better solution would make it a random chance that V.France, Hungary or Czechs go Neutral. That would make the invasion of Spain more of a Crap shoot. Would V. France alone going Neutral be enough?

Just some thoughts,

Kevin

[royson58]

I think one thing that could easily be changed, so as to make the Spainish Option more difficult, is too make the "political" penalty (in this game, supply) a variable number. Optionally, the Spanish troops we see are an "estimate".

"Fog of War" should be much more than seeing or not seeing units. It should also be believing or not believing what you think you see.

Regards,
--Royson58--

[Daykeras]

No... Germans shouldn't be punished for taking spain. It should be set that they don't NEED to take spain to defend their lands. What should be done is make it a bad forward base for the Allies. By removing it as an effective front for the WAllies it turns into less than useful for the Germans. Sure you can use it to take Gibralter, but you can easily just use an Amphibious assault, and in the end (if you make spain a little harder to take) that's probably better than tying up resources defending spain which is a bad propostion for the WAllies to take.

That way it's not a no-brain descision to save your skin, but rather one you have to calculate. Do I take spain to get quick acess into Gibralter at the risk of tying up resources in spain to defend it, or do I leave it to be an Obstacle that the WAllies have to deal with and effectively gain some locked units by not invading.

I mean a neutral country to germany, unless really important, is probably better left neutral. It's a free army against the Allies and it gives you the most resources. It costs nothing to defend or gain resources from. I think the real issue is how easy the Allies can use it to attack Germany, thus making it vital to defend... despite it being a neutral.

[Drax Kramer]

Instead of making Spain more difficult to conquer (or introduce some artificial penalty), I'd make Spain less worthy of invading. I mean, German controlled Spain would have been a drain on German resources rather than an asset. Spain survived the war thanks to Allied permission for Spain to import food and oil. Hence, some resources should be removed from there.

Second, Gibraltar is made too important (just as in almost every other WW2 game I know). I mean, how is Gibraltar any different than Spannish controlled ports on the other side of the straits? So, even if Germans eliminated British from Gibraltar, how were they going to prevent Allies from capturing Ceuta, Mellila and Tangers and reestablish the control of the entrance?

After all, Americans invaded Morocco in November 1942 solely out of consideration that Franco might have captured Gibraltar. It would have delayed Allied plans, but would not close the Mediterranean theatre.



Drax

[Garion]

its hard to loop around the top of england and still have movement points left

Its impossible to do the above as yoo bang into Scotland [:D]

Seriously though, as Germany I have taken Spain and Gibraltar several times and end up getting creamed by the Sov's...sigh.[8D]

Must try harder... must try harder [;)]

Cheers

Garion

[royson58]

Actually, my suggestion was not intended to punish Germany for taking Spain. It was to raise doubt in the German and WA player's minds as to what the actual cost will be. The random number could mean that it would cost Germany less supply to invade Spain. Less like chess, more like poker.

Regards,
Royson58

[Agema]

I agree that there should be a much bigger penalty for attacking some nations. I don't really buy the idea that the game is about abstract concepts. It isn't. It's based on WW2, so suggesting that important historical (even be they political) issues aren't of consideration is instantly very weak.

I think there are two things that could be done with Spain. Firstly, I think the political cost to Hitler would have been huge. Bear in mind that in the late 1930s the Germans were actively fighting in Spain for Franco; some Spaniards, at least a division's worth, volunteered to fight with Germany in WW2 in return. Granted, Hitler had his frustrations with Franco, but you'd be asking too much to think the Germans could blithely roll the tanks in. Secondly, the US was looking at world dominance already, and it's very unlikely they would have stood by whilst a brand new European empire popped up after they'd just effectively forced the British to dismantle theirs, gobbling up all sorts of potential trade rights.

In essence, attacking Spain should merit a whopping great supply penalty for Germany, or it should risk bringing the US into increased mobilisation, or even outright war.

[Greengrinch]

Gents,

Spain should be a politically frozen Axis ally. Franco was not ungrateful to his fellow fascists. Spain was simply not in a position to help much.

Spain should be worth one resource point, not three.

Spain had just finished its dreadful civil war. It was on the brink of starvation. Although Spain was officially neutral, Spain was virtually blockaded by the Allies, who were determined not to let it be a hole in the European bloackade.

That's why neither side showed interest in invading it. Either side would have encountered a well-equipped and battle-hardened Spanish army fighting on its own rugged soil. Even if successful, an invader would be left with a starving and ruined conquest.

Spain should be unfrozen either by Axis conquest of England, or of Gibraltar, or of two of these three: Moscow, Leningrad, Baku.

[ilovestrategy]

Playing against the comp I always take Spain when I'm the Western Allies and drive into France. Do you guys think this is a good move or no? I'm talking strictly gameplay, not history.

[Doobious]

ORIGINAL: Greengrinch

Gents,

Spain should be a politically frozen Axis ally. Franco was not ungrateful to his fellow fascists. Spain was simply not in a position to help much.

Spain should be worth one resource point, not three.

Spain had just finished its dreadful civil war. It was on the brink of starvation. Although Spain was officially neutral, Spain was virtually blockaded by the Allies, who were determined not to let it be a hole in the European bloackade.

That's why neither side showed interest in invading it. Either side would have encountered a well-equipped and battle-hardened Spanish army fighting on its own rugged soil. Even if successful, an invader would be left with a starving and ruined conquest.

Spain should be unfrozen either by Axis conquest of England, or of Gibraltar, or of two of these three: Moscow, Leningrad, Baku.

I believe this is the solution to the problem.

Attacking Spain to get Gibraltar was the easiest, most obvious starting German strategy to me, and I've been playing for only a week or two now. If the Germans can lock down the Med, it frees up a ton of troops and supplies to go after England, and later, the Soviets.

Spain is a no-brainer to me.

[Greengrinch]

P.S. The "Russian" conditions (Axis holds 2 of 3 of Leningrad, Moscow, Baku) for the unfreezing of Spain mentioned in my above post should also include these conditions: 1) Italy has not surrendered, and 2) the Axis holds France.

Franco did offer to enter the war for his fascist associates, but his price was too high. He wanted giant German siege guns for the reduction of Gibraltar, tens of thousands of tons of grain, and the right to choose the moment of Spanish entry. Franco was sensibly fearful of America entering the war. Having an old hatred of America dating to the Spanish-American war when he was a boy, he didn't fancy the idea of losing another war against us.

These three demands would be difficult to model into the game.

[ilovestrategy]

ORIGINAL: Doobious

ORIGINAL: Greengrinch

Gents,

Spain should be a politically frozen Axis ally. Franco was not ungrateful to his fellow fascists. Spain was simply not in a position to help much.

Spain should be worth one resource point, not three.

Spain had just finished its dreadful civil war. It was on the brink of starvation. Although Spain was officially neutral, Spain was virtually blockaded by the Allies, who were determined not to let it be a hole in the European bloackade.

That's why neither side showed interest in invading it. Either side would have encountered a well-equipped and battle-hardened Spanish army fighting on its own rugged soil. Even if successful, an invader would be left with a starving and ruined conquest.

Spain should be unfrozen either by Axis conquest of England, or of Gibraltar, or of two of these three: Moscow, Leningrad, Baku.

I believe this is the solution to the problem.

Attacking Spain to get Gibraltar was the easiest, most obvious starting German strategy to me, and I've been playing for only a week or two now. If the Germans can lock down the Med, it frees up a ton of troops and supplies to go after England, and later, the Soviets.

Spain is a no-brainer to me.

But what if you are the Western Alliance like myself? Is taking Spain to drive into France a good idea or folly?

[Doobious]

WA attacking Spain seems like a good strategic decision to avoid a D-Day style landing. But, totally unrealistic, like the Axis assaulting Spain.

I just finished a game playing the Allies and I did a landing in the undefended Albania. WA an Soviets then pushed Germany back together. Soviets in the north and WA in the south.

It seems to me that the attackers (Axis) should be the only ones who are allowed to overrun neutral countries.

BTW... after playing the Axis about 10 times vs the AI, and the Allies once, the Allies are way overpowered with auto-victory turned off. It was so simple compared to playing the Axis. The Allies don't need to attack Spain. Just my 2 cents.

[WaterRabbit]

I also agree that this would be the best and simplest solution. However, there would also need to be a balance for the Allies taking Spain, such as Turkey joining the Axis or a reduced factory multiple due to unrest at home.