Spice? and other commodities...Economy in General

[LaVean]

What is with spice? Is this another way to have a lux good?

If it represents sugar then it should be many from the carrib and should be factored into colonial and blockade activity until the time that the French discovered the sugar beet making imports hence the blockade of sugar irrelevent.

If it represents peper for preservation that became less important once it was discovered that vegitables and meat could be "canned" through heat processes and therefore "fresh" peas and asparagus would be available year round.

There were amazing technological advances in this period none of which are reflected in the game.

One would be the shortage of saltpetre leading first to scraping basements then to its "substitute".

Another would the very first use of chemical dyes (although color fast chemical dyes are another 70 years off)

Why is the "silicone valley" of its day the area between Limoges, Aubusson not reflected for either luxeries or the inovations in gun manufacturing?

I think there needs to be a technology aspect to the economy just as there is to the military side where we choose what advances there are based on the number of barracks why cant we make tech advances based on number of factories?

[Franz von G]

ORIGINAL: LaVean]

There were amazing technological advances in this period none of which are reflected in the game.

i don't see all those "amazing technological advances" between 1792-1815; and if you consider that a single campaign in the game last only 3-6 years..

[LaVean]

Well it depends on if you consider being able to can food for the army so that it can be better supplied, the semaphore system, the great leaps in treatment of disease, the mass production of textiles in France with the Jacquard Loom which made cloth affordable to the masses...the change from cane to beat sugar was a result of one of the academie prizes...clearly the "savants' made this a period of technolgical leaps...just the strides forward in astronomy, navigation, mathematics make this the culmantion and implimentation of the Enlightenment. What about cheaper glass? What about the innovations in the making of salt and the elimination of the Gabelle?

Clearly there is a lack of reading on the part of the designers on the technology of the period.

[Franz von G]

sure, but they changed the life of the people during a small arc of time, like 1872-1874? or 1805-1808? I mean, if i discover something in 1806, but the game ends two years later, i doubt that my discovery can change the world in these two years..the mass-use of an invention is not so fast.. (for ex, can food was discovered in France in 1795 for military porpouse, but until 1810 it was not so common, and the english used it for the first time in 1814)
I see "civil technology" more interesting in a game like EU2, where I lead a nation for three century ...
and, from my POV, the game is complex enough [:'(]

[bluemonday]

ORIGINAL: LaVean
Clearly there is a lack of reading on the part of the designers on the technology of the period.

I doubt it. I think it's called "focused design." The game is one of the Napoleonic Wars. I, for one, wouldn't want to see a "world simulator" treatment of 1792-1815.

Piling on features is a sure way to ruin a design.

The economic system is opaque enough without having to add a lot of additional aspects like civilian tech advancement.

[LaVean]

It all depends on your bias.

I think losing sugar because of a blockade and then getting sugar because of sugar beets would be significant...as for you arguement of wide spread I can forward you sources on stockpiling food that was canned. What do you think the soldiers in the campaign for France ate? Depots of canned goods made a huge difference. To operate Napoleonic logistics as if this were the 7 years war is not realistic or correct.

If however your bias is to abstract things that don't interest you personally and say it is too complex already means you over look things like leaders not being killed in fast combat.

[kerguelen]

I am with LaVean here. Times of warfare usually accelerate the practical application of scientific findings not only for the military but also for civilians (because of Blockades for example). Look at WWII: practical application of nuclear fission within a few years of the original Hahn/Strassmann/Meitner experiment, increased production of synthetic rubber,...
Sugar is of course the best known example from the Napoleonic period.
(Besides it would make blockades useful). But if it's difficult to implement right now, one could make the production of spices dependent on a certain province factory level.

[LaVean]

WWII brought use penicillin and open heart surgery...but I guess the designers would not consider these technological developments they would want to use.

[sol_invictus]

I agree these things were all very important but I doubt the Devs left them out because of ignorance. They had to draw the line on features at some point to avoid features creep. The economic part of the game is very deep already and I'm not sure how much greater the gameplay would be if what you mentioned was included. Maybe in the next game.

[LaVean]

A lot of things could be done as simply as they did combat upgrades...

For example why are upgrades like naval guns and naval manuveurs a function of barracks and not docks?

Why aren't depots tied into number and quality of factories? etc.

Technology could be abstracted into upgrades like the military. There could be things like semaphore gives better communication and hence the government has better control of the population...ie. the government can control rumours better so the effect of losses on National Morale is reduced. This is one example that i think with the mechanics that are in situ would not be difficult to implement

[sol_invictus]

I guess they could have done any number of thing in ten different ways. Maybe it's a coding issue, I have no way of knowing. The game will be patched and tweaked, but don't expect anything sweeping. It's really solid already for ver 1.0. Make reasonable suggestions and give it some time to develope.

[ericbabe]

I systematically perused several histories of the era and took notes, then turned the notes into ideas for rules. I was only able to use about 20% of the rule ideas I massed. Some of the innovations mentioned (particularly semaphore) are on my short list of additional upgrades we'd like to add in an improvement patch.

Economic Upgrades (the econ analog of the military upgrade) was something I very much wanted to do, as was a separate rating for naval improvements -- but there are many other things I very much wanted to do that I didn't get to do.

[kerguelen]

Economic Upgrades (the econ analog of the military upgrade) was something I very much wanted to do, as was a separate rating for naval improvements -- but there are many other things I very much wanted to do that I didn't get to do.

Is it possible to include 'economic upgrades' by using certain factory levels as preconditions (similar to barrack levels for special units)? e.g. to produce spices (colonial goods like sugar) an agriculture level x and a factory level y in a province would be necessary. This would make blokades and trade really interesting options to lower enemy moral and force them to surrender..

[jchastain]

Making Naval improvements separate and driven off docks makes perfect sense. I'd love to see that.

Adding a whole new series of economic advances just adds more complexity to an already fairly complex game. That's not something I'm expecting to see in a patch.