A Very British Midway

[EUBanana]

Another debate rages about the worthlessness or not of the Royal Navy aircraft carriers! Well, I thought it was time to try it out, lets see what WITP says about the result. A bit of scenario editing and voila, the American fleet has vanished through a chronosphere induced warp and been replaced with a British one.

The battlefield - somewhere south of Wake Island.

The contenders - two fleets of equal size. 4 carriers, 1 battleship, 2 heavy cruisers, 2 light cruisers, 4 destroyers, a fairly representative mix on each side, I would hope. As a kindness, the British carriers are equipped with Seafires instead of Fulmars - we all know what will happen with Fulmars, ie a quick death, so lets give em at least a fighting chance, eh?
Besides, the argument is about carrier design not which a/c is better.

The date is some time in May, 1942...

In the Japanese corner - none other than the Fearsome Foursome!



And in the British corner... His Majesty's finest.




Both sides have CAP set to 50%. Jap Kates are on naval search 0, Jap Vals are on naval search 20%. British Swordfish are on naval search 10%, they better get lucky on their float planes...

Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen!

[Mooshh]

I think I will place my money on the Japs but they will take a few torps but probaly won't lose a ship,

[madflava13]

I bet the Brits lose 3, with another too damaged to probably survive...

IJN will take a torp hit on one carrier, but that's it.

[EUBanana]

Well, the carrier TFs spot each other, react to each other, and end up 60 miles away from each other. Both sides launch massive strikes.

Well. One side launches massive strikes, the other modest strikes.



Wheres the Jap CAP?

The Seafires hold em off and about 40 Swordfish get through to the Japanese ships.
Which proves to be quite a painful experience for them.



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Day Air attack on TF at 85,66

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 26

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 32
Swordfish x 46

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 15 destroyed, 2 damaged
Swordfish: 13 destroyed, 20 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Soryu, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CV Kaga

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
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Day Air attack on TF at 85,66

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12

Allied aircraft
Swordfish x 14

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Swordfish: 7 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Soryu, on fire, heavy damage
BB Nagato, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Hiryu, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
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Nice!

Unfortunately then its the Japs turn.



Its a veritable massacre of Seafires in the skies above the British fleet, and the vast majority of the Japanese bombers get through.
However, then the murderous British AA fire really takes its toll. For a while it looks like the British might get off amazingly lightly - but strike after strike comes in, and eventually Formidable zigs when she should have zagged and eats torpedo.

The Vals, incidentally, may as well be dropping rifle bullets instead of bombs for all the effect it has.

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Day Air attack on TF at 86,66

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 32
D3A Val x 59
B5N Kate x 45

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
D3A Val: 15 destroyed, 29 damaged
B5N Kate: 10 destroyed, 25 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 7 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Formidable
CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 3
CV Victorious, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB Prince of Wales, Bomb hits 2
CV Indomitable, Bomb hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
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Day Air attack on TF at 86,66

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 15
B5N Kate x 21

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed
B5N Kate: 6 destroyed, 9 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 12 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Formidable, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB Prince of Wales
CV Victorious, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Indomitable

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
1 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
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Day Air attack on TF at 86,66

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 17
D3A Val x 21
B5N Kate x 24

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 8 destroyed, 5 damaged
B5N Kate: 4 destroyed, 13 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 5 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Formidable, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CL Birmingham
CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 1
CV Victorious, on fire
CV Indomitable
BB Prince of Wales

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet

[EUBanana]

Day 2 of the British Midway battle.

Soryu sinks straight away. Hiryu is buggered, 67 flotation damage, 33 system damage, and limping away with a DD escort, unable to launch aircraft. The remaining Jap ships will stick around - this is a fight to the death. (Though its probably not a good idea - but these are Japs we're talking about. BANZAI!)

The Japanese main body now looks like this :-



Formidable is even worse shape than Hiryu is, and limps off on 84 flotation damage. Victorious is still in fighting condition, just, on 20 flotation and 20 sys damage. The rest of the fleet... well, is pretty much unscratched. Which is impressive, given each carrier got hit at least once by torpedo.



On the other hand, the British suffered pretty badly in the air. Even with double the Japanese flak. Specially the Seafires, which suffered 40 losses out of a total carrier air force of ~130 frames!

[EUBanana]

Well, if the first day was good for the Brits, the second is good for the Japs.

Basically... the British are pretty much out of aircraft. Some pathetic strikes are made on the Japanese fleet, but they score nothing of note.

But Akagi and Kaga still have a lot of firepower on board, and the British get a real roasting. With almost all their Seafires gone, the Japs swan in and the AA seems to have much less effect. Maybe the Seafires yesterday at least managed to break the strikes up somewhat?

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Day Air attack on TF at 83,64

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 6
Swordfish x 11

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 2 destroyed
Swordfish: 4 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Torpedo hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
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Day Air attack on TF at 83,64

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 3
Swordfish x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 1 destroyed
Swordfish: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Day Air attack on TF at 83,65

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 30
D3A Val x 16
B5N Kate x 28

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
D3A Val: 3 destroyed, 9 damaged
B5N Kate: 3 destroyed, 8 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
BB Prince of Wales, Bomb hits 1
CV Indomitable, Torpedo hits 1
CV Victorious, Bomb hits 4, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Day Air attack on TF at 83,64

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 3
Swordfish x 2

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Swordfish: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Day Air attack on TF at 83,65

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 26
D3A Val x 3
B5N Kate x 14

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged


Allied Ships
CV Indomitable, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Victorious, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB Prince of Wales

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After that, the Japs have taken no more damage (the torpedo hits on the Jap carriers appear to have been lies from overzealous Swordfish pilots - none are damaged) and the Japanese fleet may only have 2 CVs left in it but thats 98 aircraft. Nagato is in a fairly bad way (40 flot) but who cares about a battleship in a carrier duel?

The British fleet is screwed. All three carriers are on 40-50 flotation damage, none of them can launch aircraft. (Somehow Prince of Wales managed to survive all this taking 1 - yes, 1, a whole single point - of system damage). If they stuck around, they would be gone, so at this point - battle over.

The problem appears to be not so much air group size limiting the size of the strikes, but more air group size limiting their endurance in battle. In the first day, the British definitely had the upper hand, and if they could have retired from battle after one day of strikes, it'd be a British victory. On the other hand, the next day it was just rout all the way, with most of the British aircraft shot down and the ones that were left with low morale and high fatigue.

I actually ran through day 1 again and scored almost identical results - 1 British carrier limping away, 1 Jap carrier limping away, 1 Jap carrier sunk - so I don't think this is a fluke, but pretty much what one might expect.

[okonumiyaki]

Rule Brittania! Brittania rule the waves!

So UK best tactics are "hit and run" - relying on heavy protection to get better of first day duel, and then zooming home to reload? Probably leaving behind unfortunate bait?

[sacorsair]

Take a gander at the AA ratings 2:1 Royal Navy get this more even and then rerun it . heck the POW has like 1100 by itself!!!!![&o]

[ChezDaJez]

I actually ran through day 1 again and scored almost identical results - 1 British carrier limping away, 1 Jap carrier limping away, 1 Jap carrier sunk - so I don't think this is a fluke, but pretty much what one might expect.

Unless you exited from the game and restarted it, the results will be very similar most of the time. Almost like a random seed number isn't getting reset or called again.

The best way is to take a saved file, enter the orders and run it. Make your observations and start all again including re-entering orders. Re-running file that was saved AFTER all the orders were entered will only give identical results each time.

Chez

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: sacorsair

Take a gander at the AA ratings 2:1 Royal Navy get this more even and then rerun it . heck the POW has like 1100 by itself!!!!![&o]

Well, yes, but thats a part of the experiment, really. The British AA ratings are much higher than the Japanese. For that matter so are the Americans, so if it was American escort ships I dont think the AA rating of the fleet there is out of order. Thats a problem the Japs will have to deal with.

The British carriers themselves have AA ratings around 1000, even if there was no escort at all that fleet would have an AA score ~4000. Even if you then added those crappy Ceres class CLAAs, you are going to get up to 5000, no probs. Consider the AA part of the experiment. If in game you amassed a British CVBG, then thats not an unreasonable figure for its AA value - the Kates are going to have to deal with that, just as the British have to deal with being outnumbered 3 to 1 in the air.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: okonumiyaki

Rule Brittania! Brittania rule the waves!

So UK best tactics are "hit and run" - relying on heavy protection to get better of first day duel, and then zooming home to reload? Probably leaving behind unfortunate bait?

Probably... I think if the UK carriers were combined with US ones you'd have a deadly force indeed. Bear in mind this is May 1942 - early in the game - and thats 1 v 1 against solid Japanese carriers. I didnt touch the experience ratings either, so thats Zeroes with 80+ experience there, if KB has been bled it might be lower than that.

I think the UK carriers are really ship killers, more so than the US ones even. The armoured flight deck has one real use - it makes them Val proof. If you think about the ramifications of that, the small British flight complement isnt such a problem. In terms of fighters and torpedo bombers, discounting the Vals, 1 Illustrious is about equivalent to 1 Akagi.

[EUBanana]

OK, Version 2. The Japs are playing it a bit sounder this time - CAP at 70%. On the grounds that tinderbox carriers need protection. British CAP is staying at 50%, on the grounds that armoured boxes and their AA guns need to play a bigger role in defence of the ship.

Things go much better for the Japanese. The higher CAP is noticeable, Swordfish are pretty vulnerable when the Zeroes get among them.

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Day Air attack on TF at 84,67

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 60

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 23
Swordfish x 29

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 9 destroyed, 3 damaged
Swordfish: 17 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Akagi
CA Nachi
CL Isuzu

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
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Day Air attack on TF at 84,67

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 8
Swordfish x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 2 destroyed
Swordfish: 20 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi

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Day Air attack on TF at 84,67

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 46

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 4
Swordfish x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Swordfish: 6 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi
CV Soryu, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Hiryu, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Swordfish launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 84,68

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 29
D3A Val x 82
B5N Kate x 90

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 35

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 11 destroyed
D3A Val: 18 destroyed, 23 damaged
B5N Kate: 17 destroyed, 26 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Formidable, Bomb hits 7
CV Indomitable, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Victorious, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB Prince of Wales, Bomb hits 1
CL Birmingham
CA London

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

End of day 1 :

Hiryu is going home but on 47 flot its not so bad. Jap carrier fleet still has 159 aircraft aboard it.

Indomitable is going home on 67 flot, and the British fleet is down to 67 aircraft.

[EUBanana]

Day 2 is a British rout, much as before. Two more British carriers on heavy damage, no damage to the Jap fleet.


I think the moral of the story is that the British can actually hold their own at 1 to 1 odds and inflict damage upon the enemy with 1/3 the fighters, but only for one day. So yeah, hit and run.

And the Jap carriers want a decent CAP. Even against a motley handful of biplanes.

[Andy Mac]

Interested to know whether the RN had shot off all its AA ammo after day 1.

Did POW have much left ?

Andy

[EUBanana]

Well, not having the save I'd have to run it again for a screenie of PoW after a battle - but look at the above screenshot of the British fleet after day 1. AA ammo down to 27% so it looks like they blew off 3/4 of the AA ammo in one day.

[cookie monster]

I hope that carrier coordination rule is not in effect here as the results will be a lot different to a player who negates it's effect.

The coordination of airstrikes is affected by how many Carrier aircraft are based in the TF
launching a strike. The chance of uncoordination is doubled under the following circumstances:
Allied TF in 1942 and the number of aircraft in the TF is greater than 100 + rnd (100).
Allied TF in 1943 and the number of aircraft in the TF is greater than 150 + rnd (150).
Allied TF in 1944 or later or a Japanese TF at any time and the number of aircraft in the
TF is greater than 200 + rnd (200).

Also, in 1942 Allied coordination is generally not as good as the Japanese’s.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

I hope that carrier coordination rule is not in effect here as the results will be a lot different to a player who negates it's effect.

The coordination of airstrikes is affected by how many Carrier aircraft are based in the TF
launching a strike. The chance of uncoordination is doubled under the following circumstances:
Allied TF in 1942 and the number of aircraft in the TF is greater than 100 + rnd (100).
Allied TF in 1943 and the number of aircraft in the TF is greater than 150 + rnd (150).
Allied TF in 1944 or later or a Japanese TF at any time and the number of aircraft in the
TF is greater than 200 + rnd (200).

Also, in 1942 Allied coordination is generally not as good as the Japanese’s.

From looking at the two attempts above, I would say the first was coordinated (80 a/c made a single strike scoring 10 torpedo hits) and uncoordinated the second time (split over 3 strikes, two of them barely escorted - lots of dead Swordfish, 3 torpedo hits).

[Skyros]

Now try the same experiment using only three British carriers split into two TF as at Midway.

[witpqs]

If you're really looking for a Midway-type test, you need to go with only 3 Allied carriers. It was 4 IJ vs. 3 USA.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

If you're really looking for a Midway-type test, you need to go with only 3 Allied carriers. It was 4 IJ vs. 3 USA.

This is true, but the US carriers have a higher AC capacity than the IJN, no? Don't recall the actual plane counts, but it was something close to parity (esp. if you throw in the Midway aircraft). The IJN did have a couple of smaller carriers with the main force/Yamato/Yamamoto that didn't get into the fight.

Of course, you can decide to game it anyway you like. If you want to have a/c parity like the actual battle, maybe you should kick in a couple of more British CVs. Or put aircraft on Wake and have the IJN attack Wake first turn (as per the actual Midway battle).