Could set Utah up as a target ship without armament, give her some SYS damage, but give her an upgrade date of 7th December 41 which includes armament.
Then, if the Allied player wants to have her sit in San Francisco for ages, then she could be given guns and out she goes to do battle.
No?
Utah???!!!???
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Task Force 6418 and New Caledonia
ORIGINAL: EUBanana
Could set Utah up as a target ship without armament, give her some SYS damage, but give her an upgrade date of 7th December 41 which includes armament.
Then, if the Allied player wants to have her sit in San Francisco for ages, then she could be given guns and out she goes to do battle.
No?
I have found that for some reason when Utah is in the unarmed conditioned and listed as a BB, she is usually one of the most heavily damaged, if not sunk, vessel in Pearl Harbor. So I have to agree with Don that it is probably not worth the effort. However, I modified the CHS database to allow for the upgrades, making her a PG as she had been 'demilitirized' and was given the disignation of AG-16. I think this decision should be left to the individual player.
RE: Task Force 6418 and New Caledonia
ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
There are a number of histories that mention naval escort, just no details. And it just doesn't make sense that the first really large movement of U.S. Troops after Pearl Harbor would go un-escorted. The use of carriers for distant cover was common, but there must have been some type of ASW/Anti-raider escort. This is one of the two things that is becoming quite troubling.
The other is the one you initially pointed out - the capacity of the transports being insufficient to lift the entire force. In WITP terms, TF 6814 would contain:
1. The Americal Division (at 2/3 strength - not sure how to handle that either)
2. 754th Tank Bn
3. 810th EAB
4. 811th EAB
5. 70th CAA Rgt
6. 259th CD Bn (not now in OOB)
7. 67th Fighter Squadron
8. A Base force to account for the 65th Material Squadron and all the QM units.
Scenario 15 at the 117th USN Base Force at Noumea at the beginning of the war. We removed it of course but it now makes as good a choice as any for a part of 6814. It is Navy, not Army, but it can also stand in for all the Navy Facilities added there later.
As to Americal itself, it's infantry strength was only 2 regiments and artillery was a little light. The third regiment (164th) and more artillery arrived a month later. We could represent this by cutting the number of squads and guns but reinforcement might take a long, long time - much more than a month. We could also give the division a 33% disabled factor - allowing it to rebuild over time without drawing reinforcements. This is probably best but exacerbates the transport problem.
Do you have specifics an this? All I can find is very vague, for instance, that it was fortunate that any unit had more that 20% of its equipmen, especially in 81mm mortars, 37mm anti-tank guns (tank production sucking up most of this production), and AA ammunition. The US Army in Dec 1941 was sadly underequipped and under trained. The 2/3 sounds a bit right for infantry, but the engineers should be full strength. Speaking of Engineers, what happened to the 42 and 46 Engineer regiments listed on the Americal website? Also, the 70th CAA Rgt in the database?
Eight transports took the TF to Melbourne and seven of them carried it on to Noumea. In WITP terms we'd need a lot more, even with up-classing the historical transport. The Base force would need a large transport, the two EAB a medium transport each, the two artillery units a transport or cargo ship each, the fighter squadron another cargo ship.
That's six ships and we haven't even come to the big units.
The Americal Division (at full strength) would need about 18,200 AP load units or 80,000 AK and the tank battalion would need another 21,900 AP or 14,700 AK. That would be at least four transports for Americal (five if we used the existing large transport) and 3 AK for the 754th.
Approximately double the historical number of transports!
So at this point I am kind of stuck. A fully-historical implementation is not possible in game terms and I wonder if it is fully desirable. The game will develop differently than history and copying a reinforcement that happened several months into the war may be inappropriate. It just might be best to simply provide the units at the proper time and let players deploy them as they wish.
I think that having all the units show up at Melbourne on Feb 27th, sans transports, would be the best compromise if we wanted to insure that there was actually a US division disignated Americal. Americal is a specific historical construct, so if there is to be Division named as such, then it behooves us to at least attempt to simulate its creation as much as possible. Having it appear at Melbourne would be suffcient compromise. Otherwise, just break it down into its individual components and do away with it as a division.
As to the other units in New Caledonia:
The French Infantry Battalion was apparently more constabulary than infantry. It was politically aligned with the original Vichy governor and was sometimes used to control pro-Gaulist groups. Also, the French had raised a "Pacific Battalion" from New Caledonia and other French Islands. This unit left the Pacific in 1941 and fought in North Africa. The Pacific Battalion pulled a number of men from other pacific units - probably the best of the officers and NCOs.
There were also several militias - mostly pro-Gaulist but some pro-Vichy as well. There was considerable friction between these units and Australian and American commanders had to tiptoe carefully around them.
Hmmm, now just because it was used as constabulary role does not mean that it was not a combat formation. Many of the French colonial units had dual roles, as indeed do most garrison units in colonial situations.
The Australians had two military forces and one civilian unit in New Caledonia before TF 6814 arrived:
An Australian Construction Company, under contract to the U.S. Army, was building an airfield on the North end of New Caledonia. This was to be a staging field in the Pacific Air Ferry Route.
Robin Force was a small Royal Australian Artillery detachment charged with installing two six-inch CD guns at Noumea and training French Gunners to man them. The guns were British style and (I think) came via New Zealand. The Australians had imbedded a communications detachment and a few aircraft service personal into Robin Force for their own use but, by agreement with the French, there was no infantry component.
2/3 Independent Company was sent from Australian the day after the war began (21 officers and 312 other ranks). It deployed primarily north of Noumea and had demolition duties in the event of a Japanese attack before reinforcements arrived - especially around the new airfield.
Also two Australian Mine Sweepers swept Noumea Harbor some three days before TF 6418 arrived - as a precaution. Mildura was one of them.
Interesting Australian components. To this must be added the American components, especially construction crews:
"Meanwhile, work on the New Caledonia airfields at Plaines des Gaiacs and Tontouta progressed rapidly, Air Ferry Routes Across the South Pacific especially after the civilian workers arrived from Canton. In addition to their engineering duties there, Saeur and MacCasland assumed a series of unique additional assignments. After Pan Am evacuated its employees at the outbreak of hostilities, Saeur and MacCasland successfully operated
the seaplane base for military use. Then, when an outbreak of bubonic plague prevented the Sverdrup and Parcel firm from bringing in civilian engineers and draftsmen from the
United States, Saeur and MacCasland took over the work of architect-engineers. Perhaps their most unique role, however, involved international negotiations. Rear Admiral
Thierry d'Argenlieu, the new Free French high commissioner, would only negotiate with the Army officers. With full cooperation from the New Caledonian and French authorities,
progress was steady.
On 28 December 1941, 18 days after the Japanese invaded the Philippines, Colonel Wyman announced that the air ferry route was capable of handling Air Corps bombers. Between
3 and 12 January 1942, a flight of three B-17s completed the trip to Townsville, Australia, using airfields completed on Canton, Nandi, and Tontouta. The pilots reported the runways to be excellent. The trouble on Christmas Island had delayed its completion, but on 21 January a flight of B-17s landed on its runway, shortening the first leg of the journey from Hawaii by nearly 700 miles." Air Ferry Routes Across the South Pacific
by Donald T. Fitzgerald
RE: Task Force 6418 and New Caledonia
I was referring to entire units, not to the equipment of the units. The original TF6418 units only included 2 infantry regiments and were 1 FA battalion short for a divisional complement. The rest came later.ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
Do you have specifics an this? All I can find is very vague, for instance, that it was fortunate that any unit had more that 20% of its equipmen, especially in 81mm mortars, 37mm anti-tank guns (tank production sucking up most of this production), and AA ammunition. The US Army in Dec 1941 was sadly underequipped and under trained. The 2/3 sounds a bit right for infantry, but the engineers should be full strength. Speaking of Engineers, what happened to the 42 and 46 Engineer regiments listed on the Americal website? Also, the 70th CAA Rgt in the database?
The two General Service Engineering Regiments built airfields, roads, and other facilities in Northern Australian and later (if memory serves) in New Guinea. Two additional battalions came slightly later plus two dump truck companies. In the U.S. Army organization of early World War II a General Service Engineering Regiment had heavy equipment and skilled engineers while an Engineering battalion primarily provided additional manual labor for construction projects. Additional specialized companies provided needed support - like dump trucks.
I think that having all the units show up at Melbourne on Feb 27th, sans transports, would be the best compromise if we wanted to insure that there was actually a US division disignated Americal. Americal is a specific historical construct, so if there is to be Division named as such, then it behooves us to at least attempt to simulate its creation as much as possible. Having it appear at Melbourne would be suffcient compromise. Otherwise, just break it down into its individual components and do away with it as a division.
I'm actually leaning toward leaving things just as they are in the scenario. None of the currently available options seems more attractive and inertia is on the side of, well - inertia.
Hmmm, now just because it was used as constabulary role does not mean that it was not a combat formation. Many of the French colonial units had dual roles, as indeed do most garrison units in colonial situations.
Most constabulary units are trained for police duties first with military a (sometimes distant) second. With a few exceptions - like the Philippine Constabulary that was fighting a major Moro insurgency and therewore well trained and experience - we have left out all constabulary units. Too little affect on history and too few slots left in the database.
RE: Task Force 6418 and New Caledonia
ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
Do you have specifics an this? All I can find is very vague, for instance, that it was fortunate that any unit had more that 20% of its equipmen, especially in 81mm mortars, 37mm anti-tank guns (tank production sucking up most of this production), and AA ammunition. The US Army in Dec 1941 was sadly underequipped and under trained. The 2/3 sounds a bit right for infantry, but the engineers should be full strength. Speaking of Engineers, what happened to the 42 and 46 Engineer regiments listed on the Americal website? Also, the 70th CAA Rgt in the database?I was referring to entire units, not to the equipment of the units. The original TF6418 units only included 2 infantry regiments and were 1 FA battalion short for a divisional complement. The rest came later.
The two General Service Engineering Regiments built airfields, roads, and other facilities in Northern Australian and later (if memory serves) in New Guinea. Two additional battalions came slightly later plus two dump truck companies. In the U.S. Army organization of early World War II a General Service Engineering Regiment had heavy equipment and skilled engineers while an Engineering battalion primarily provided additional manual labor for construction projects. Additional specialized companies provided needed support - like dump trucks.
I think that having all the units show up at Melbourne on Feb 27th, sans transports, would be the best compromise if we wanted to insure that there was actually a US division disignated Americal. Americal is a specific historical construct, so if there is to be Division named as such, then it behooves us to at least attempt to simulate its creation as much as possible. Having it appear at Melbourne would be suffcient compromise. Otherwise, just break it down into its individual components and do away with it as a division.
I'm actually leaning toward leaving things just as they are in the scenario. None of the currently available options seems more attractive and inertia is on the side of, well - inertia.
Well there seems to be an impasse here, maybe we should poll the players. As far as slots go, illiminating the multible stationary CD units (seperate batteries, etc.) found in various location into a more generic single entity would definitly free up some slots. I for one will probably modify CHS to include the TF 6814 reinforcements appearing at Melbourne. Probably will also look at freeing up some slots by consolidating CD units into composite entites as I have already modified the West Coast and Hawaii CD units.