Any way to combat Waste ?

[Hard Sarge]

I got a nice game going, been trying to be peaceful, but others keep DOW on me, and I destroy them

now I am loseing some 1350 bucks a month to waste, my protuction is totally silly

I guess Wellington caught Nappy, walking to Waterloo, as he was trying to get a loan as the the banks in Waterloo had a good loan rate

HARD_Sarge

[Queeg]

Love to know the answer to this one myself.

[YohanTM2]

ditto, poor France starts with a whack.

[ericbabe]

We're considering making courts (and perhaps diplomats) do this in the patch, but currently there is no way to do this.

[Jordan]

Isn't waste what prevents the game from becoming a "conquer the world" fest? I hope that it doesn't change too much or the game could become so. It should be difficult to govern many provinces especially those of a different culture (and is located far from your capital) who don't appreciate the conquerors and aren't incented to help them. If it does change then I'd like to see some compensation elsewhere, like increasing the cost of obtaining certain provinces

Although the waste in the France in the beginning of the 1805 scenario might be a little much, especially in multui-player games.

[Hard Sarge]

Well my only hassle with the anti take over the world idea, for this game, is as soon as there is peace, somebody is going to DOW on you, most times, 3 or 4 of them are, so what are you suppost to do, go to the Dance

defeat a side in a war, and force them to be nice, all they do is break the tready, if they think they got a chance to get away with it (had one game, I decided to be nice and took all of Aus Armies away from them for a year, the AI got smart and pulled most of the troops out of there Armies before they gave them to me)


my current game, I got 57 cities as France, I have not DOW on anybody the whole game (well, I took over some liberated cities)

LOL, I just beat Spain, Sweden and Turkey, sat back and said finally, I can relax, look at the screen, and Prussia DOW me, thought to myself, well that was dumb

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: Jordan

Isn't waste what prevents the game from becoming a "conquer the world" fest? I hope that it doesn't change too much or the game could become so. It should be difficult to govern many provinces especially those of a different culture (and is located far from your capital) who don't appreciate the conquerors and aren't incented to help them. If it does change then I'd like to see some compensation elsewhere, like increasing the cost of obtaining certain provinces

Although the waste in the France in the beginning of the 1805 scenario might be a little much, especially in multui-player games.

I hope they don't change waste either. I like having some kind of restraint that reflects the administrative difficulties in managing a large empire, especially one that was won through conflict. Getting new provinces to adapt to a new way of doing 'business' and enforcing laws should cause some waste and corruption.

[Hard Sarge]

I can agree, as long as the waste is coming from the cities you have taken, not your own cities or the cities that want you to protect them

I can see if I took over Wales as France, they not being too productive, but not Paris, or if Poland asks me to protect them, they shouldn't get all hussie fit and lay down on the job

also, I don't think the waste as a whole needs to be changed, but there should be some way to help control it

courts/arts/HAPPIENESS

if you spend all your time making a mighty war machine, sure you should have trouble down the road, if you spend half your time improving your cities, and building your army as you need it, you should not have as much trouble

HARD_Sarge

[Reiryc]

I can agree, as long as the waste is coming from the cities you have taken, not your own cities or the cities that want you to protect them

Why?

Even today we have loads of waste in our governments and cities. Just look at chicago for waste and corruption!

I can see if I took over Wales as France, they not being too productive, but not Paris, or if Poland asks me to protect them, they shouldn't get all hussie fit and lay down on the job

I don't think they are laying down on the job, but just like when east germany and west germany reunited, you found that there were a lot of problems in dealing with the unified country. These problems, although lessened today, still exist. This is with the use of high speed communications such as computers, telephones, radio, television and so on.

[Hugo Olsson]

Maybe the problem isn't waste itself, but the lack of documentation in the manual about waste. I can accept if half my economy is lost to waste, if only I'm told what will cause waste and what can (or can't) be done about it. As it is now, I have no idea whether waste is calculated simply as a proportion of my gross income or per province, I don't know if conquered provinces will draw more waste than domestic ones, I don't know if trade is susceptible to waste (in which case my trade is returning a serious deficit and should be shut down), etcetera, etcetera.

Waste is a huge deal in this game and I really think it should have been covered in detail in the manual. (Manual 1.1, anyone?)

[Mynok]

I've noticed in my games as Turkey (which is actually an excellent choice for learning the economics of the game) that waste seems to be concentrated in once of the major "happiness" items: wine, textiles, spices or luxuries. Often it's the one with the largest production, but not always.

I'll see if I can post a screen shot of what I'm saying this evening. It's very noticeable and seems fixated for the entire game. One time my spices were getting crushed. Another it was textiles.

[jchastain]

Yep. The way waste seems to work is you can produce a certain low number of a commodity without waste but then it begins to kick-in and drain a percentage of production. With textiles, you don't have to produce very many before 90% of everything you make is going to waste. And anything that arrives through trade is equivalent to production, so again, 90% of what comes into the port is wasted.

So, in the final analysis, waste accomplishes a few things...

1. Your economy produces very little additional goods with growth, regardless of whether that growth comes from economic development or conquest.
2. All national economies have similar production capabilities because the larger production out of the larger economies is largely wasted.

In my mind, while not entirely realistic, both of those results lend to providing overall balance within the game.

And...

3. A smart player gets more overall production by producing a little bit of every good instead of trying to focus on any single commodity (EXCEPT for goods traded as below).
4. (removed - invalid)

[Mynok]

Exactly what I've noticed. I attempted at first to create huge quantities of textiles as Turkey so I could build lots of merchants and more easily switch from a feudal to standard economy. Waste killed me.

Now I produce large quantities and sell them, which gives me very few money problems after only a couple months, but real serious issues getting enough textiles to make the units I need to make. Turkey should have money issues, not textile issues IMO.

I also would LOVE to know how wool/cotton are turned into textiles. Since waste causes such a huge noise-to-signal ratio in the reports, I can't tell if anything is being converted....nor does the manual define was "trade labor" is. As it is, I convert cotton to money since everyone seems to have loads of wool, and Turkey has more cotton than the rest of Europe combined, especially with North Africa under her boot.

[Jordan]

Maybe the problem isn't waste itself, but the lack of documentation in the manual about waste. I can accept if half my economy is lost to waste, if only I'm told what will cause waste and what can (or can't) be done about it.

Completely agree with this. Managing expectations. If I know waste will increase and understand a little better how and why then I can accept those facts and plan my game.

The way waste seems to work is you can produce a certain low number of a commodity without waste but then it begins to kick-in and drain a percentage of production. With textiles, you don't have to produce very many before 90% of everything you make is going to waste. And anything that arrives through trade is equivalent to production, so again, 90% of what comes into the port is wasted.

Also, think this acts as an inhibitor to the player...prevents you from becoming an economic powerhouse (as in so many other games) to the point where you are just about unbeatable b/c you can produce any unit anytime you want. The waste means I will need to think wisely about my resources even late in the game.

[Jordan]

"Europe under Napoleon, 1799-1815. By Michael Broers"

From the review:

Two original themes underlie the work. First is the distinction that Broers makes between the "inner" and "outer" empire. As a detailed map illustrates, the former included Belgium, the Netherlands, the Rhinelands, most of western Germany, Switzerland, northern Italy, and France itself, shorn of the west and eastern Pyrenees, areas integrated into an efficiently administered and largely obedient bloc. In contrast, the "outer" empire, composed of the German Hanseatic territories, former Papal States, Illyrian provinces, and the kingdom of Spain ruled by Joseph Bonaparte, displayed little enthusiasm for French occupation. They resented the imposition of high taxes, enforcement of the Continental blockade against trade with England, application of the Concordat, and, perhaps most importantly, conscription demands to supply troops for the Grande Armee. Within these fringe areas, banditry flourished, elites declined to cooperate with the occupier, and the forces of counterrevolution remained active.

Second, Broers contends, Napoleon sought to rally hostile political factions of both right and left to his rule (ralliement), as well as to fuse them into a loyal administrative class (amalgame). In return for their services and obedience, Napoleon offered this new elite social order a coherent legal code and protection of their property. In the "outer" empire, Napoleonic rule rested on an insecure alliance of local collaborators and French administrators, both of whom were unpopular with their subjects.

[superdave56]

Maybe the problem isn't waste itself, but the lack of documentation in the manual about waste. I can accept if half my economy is lost to waste, if only I'm told what will cause waste and what can (or can't) be done about it. As it is now, I have no idea whether waste is calculated simply as a proportion of my gross income or per province, I don't know if conquered provinces will draw more waste than domestic ones, I don't know if trade is susceptible to waste (in which case my trade is returning a serious deficit and should be shut down), etcetera, etcetera.

I agree. Please document waste and economics so we can make intelligent decisions. Once we understand what is going on then we can have the argument over whether waste is too much, too little, or just right. Is there still going to be an economics FAQ soon?

[jchastain]

Well, I played around with waste a bit and here is how it seems to work...

First, waste is a result of total production ONLY. It is not impacted by number of provinces, level of feudalism, or anything else.

Next, waste does not seem to impact labor, food or (strangely) wool. (Wool is especially strange since cotton does experience waste - bug?).

There is a threshold level of production for each remaining item below where waste is created. For most items it is 10. For Iron and Cotton, it is 20. So, there is no waste at all on the first 10 of everything produced and the first 20 of iron or cotton produced.

For any production above that threshhold, waste is set at 50% for everything EXCEPT textiles - they experience waste at 90%. So, if you produce 24 horses, the first 10 are below the threshold. The next 14 experience 50% waste so you lose 7 of them to waste.

For any production above 3x the threshold, you lose 90% waste. So any production above 30 for most items and any production above 60 for Iron and Cotton experiences extreme (90%) waste. So, if you produce 40 horses, the first 10 experience no waste, the next 20 experience 50% waste so you lose 10 of them, and the remaining 10 produce 90% waste so you lose 9 more for a total waste of 19. (Textiles waste 90% all the time so the step up doesn't impact them).

[Jordan]

And anything that arrives through trade is equivalent to production, so again, 90% of what comes into the port is wasted.

So, why would I trade for anything except money? It seems that other players will have the same inclination, so you will have a situation with a lot of sellers and no buyers.

[Hugo Olsson]

This is extremely interesting! But how do you mean money is not affected by waste? I have a tax income of about 1500, 770 of which is lost to waste. Or do you mean money earned through trade is not affected by waste? Well, I guess I'll just try it out.
Thanks all for supplying these various bits of information!

[jchastain]

ORIGINAL: Vitelski

This is extremely interesting! But how do you mean money is not affected by waste? I have a tax income of about 1500, 770 of which is lost to waste. Or do you mean money earned through trade is not affected by waste? Well, I guess I'll just try it out.
Thanks all for supplying these various bits of information!

Doh! You're right! I was tracking commodities and just made a boneheaded statement. Cash does experience waste above a certain level. And both trade and tax income is affected. It is just significantly complex that I haven't been able to model it effectively. Thanks for the correction.