Question - Cav vs. Inf - This seems wrong

[ahauschild]

Ok, I been playing and reading Nap stuff for many years. I even had a 15 mm Prussian Army painted up that I sold a few years for 7000 bucks. The question that comes to mind is Cavarly versus Infantry. I know that infantry will try to form Emergency Square against Cav charges, this is great. The Cavalry pretty much then aborts the charge and that is good. But on a few occations the Infantry will not form emergency square and the cav will hit them with the charge. This is where I have the problem with the game mechanics. The cav ussuly now takes 1000 to 3000 casulties, while the infantry takes only maybe 100. THIS IS WRONG and must be a bug.

If the Cavalry unit charges, and if the Infantry unit does not form square, they should then be considered disordered, as the cav hit them during the process of making square.

Currently it makes no sense why the infantry would even consider making a square, as a non square they will decimate any cavalry unit that charges them, every time. As a square they dont do hardly any damage and make themselve vunerable to volley and artillery fire while losing their offensive and mobility factores.

As stated before, two things should happen.

Cav charges Infantry in line or coumn formation

Inf tries to form square, based on where the charge is comming from
- Rear Hex - Very low chance of square, unit was suprised by charge
- Rear Flanking Hexes - Lower Chance of square, unit was partialy suprised
- Front Flanking Hexes - Average Chance of square, Unit was aware of charge
- No Square build, unit gets to fire before charge is received, and defends against charge very well

If the infantry forms square, then the infantry would get a free fire at the cav, while the cav gets an auto shaken and stops at square
If the infantry fail to form square, they will disorder before the charge is received, and cav will charge a disordered infantry unit
If the charge is in the front Hex (1 hex side only) of a formed unit, no square is formed, inf would fire first, and then receive charge well

This would make sense

[Erik Rutins]

What kind of morale and upgrades did the cavalry and infantry have? What kind of cavalry and what kind of infantry was involved (i.e. Heavy vs. Militia or Light vs. Guard)?

Regards,

- Erik

[Mynok]

I've never seen an infantry that didn't make a successful formation change not become disordered. Sounds like a bug to me.

[ahauschild]

I will try to keep an eye out for that, but this is happening very often. I currently see it against the french, and I know their Cav is ussuly not Irr. and of good quality, but they charge, and if my inf fails to form square the cav will take 2000 or more casualties while my infantry that did not form square gets anywhere from 20 to 100. Just seems so wrong, the whole idea of forming square with infantry is to avoid the cav charge, as in MOST cases a cav charge against non square infantry was devestating, especialy if it did not directly come from the front facing.

[Mr. Z]

I've never seen an infantry that didn't make a successful formation change not become disordered. Sounds like a bug to me.

Yes, a unit becomes disordered after failing a formation. It sounds like maybe the AI still thinks it's in the formation it was in before attempting to form an emergency square. Hopefully Eric can help fill in the details on this one.

[Jordan]

quote]as in MOST cases a cav charge against non square infantry was devestating, especialy if it did not directly come from the front facing.[/quote]

However, well-formed, cohesive, good morale troops could fend off a frontal attack. Usually cavalry wouldn't even charge them.

[Ralegh]

Summary: this thread proposes a change to game dynamics that would make the target of a cavalry charge disorder much more easily, and take more damage from the charge.
[It is NOT discussing a possible bug.]

I support the idea when it comes to charges from the rear and rear-flanks. However, I think divisions should stand a chance of fighting off a charge from the front and front-flanks from within their current formation - 'breaking' the charge by volley fire. This should be easier to do against enemy in line and harder against enemy in column.

[Malagant]

Ralegh, I disagree, I think this should be looked at as a bug. I've consistently seen similar results when charged by enemy cavalry (ranging from Turkish Irregulars and Russian Cossacks to Prussian or Austrian Heavy Cavalry with respectable morale)...in fact I yell at the screen begging my infantry to not form square, because a cavalry charge that strikes home against my infantry in line or column is devastating to the charging cavalry, and my infantry are barely touched.

I'm quite sure this is not the intent. As others more knowledgable about the period have already said, it should NOT be the norm for cavalry to take so much damage from non-square infantry (and yes, Jordan, it COULD happen, but was NOT the norm). Since it certainly could not have been the intent, it must be a bug. [:(]

If I could save tactical battles I'd provide a saved game to demonstrate...[;)]

[ahauschild]

Depends how the mechanics work now. If it is intended for Infantry to do massive damage to cav (even if charged in the rear) when failing to form square, then its a design change. If this is in fact a bug, and Infantry was supposed to turn disordered and then the charge resolution happens, then it is a bug, and should be easily fixed.

Also, the infantry does NOT disorder during this, all that happens is he cav charges inf, any hex facing and the inf does not form square, then the cav takes 2 to 3k in damage and the infantry is still formed in line or column afterwards. I think the failed column check does not cause disorder, and there is where the bug lies.

[ericbabe]

I'm quite sure this is not the intent. As others more knowledgable about the period have already said, it should NOT be the norm for cavalry to take so much damage from non-square infantry (and yes, Jordan, it COULD happen, but was NOT the norm). Since it certainly could not have been the intent, it must be a bug. [:(]

It is the intent that charge combat against formed units be dangerous and unpredictable, especially head-on charges against formed units in rough terrain.

Infantry are not always supposed to become disordered when charged by cavalry; there is a check involved. The code seems to be working as I intended. I don't think it should be the case that it be nearly always a success to charge formed infantry with your cavalry (where success either means doing massive damage or causing an impromptu square); sometimes the charge should fail and the cavalry take majority damage.


Eric

[ahauschild]

But currently the norm, meaning most of the time cavalry takes extreme damage against formed infantry. I have NEVER seen a successfull cav charge per say yet, unless against disrupted units, end even then sometimes the results are questionable.

I agree that the front hexes if charged should give highly variable, good and bad results, as well as force them at times to form square.
But the rear flank, and especialy the REAR hex should almost always end up for the cav to do their thing. to slaughter in mass.

Maybe Light and Irr, cav should not have do the damage, but certainly the Heavy Cav, and the Lancers where designed to break infantry formations, especialy if they got flank or rear attacks.

[Jordan]

The reason it was not the norm is that cavalry did not bother to charge well formed troops, unless they could catch them by surprise or in the flanks.

A cavalry charge is really about intimidation. If good infantry stood its ground and delivered a volley then the frontal cavalry charge was a waste of time.

[Jordan]

And really good infantry may even in the rarest cases stand against a rear attack...Quatre Bras.

[Malagant]

Jordan you're citing examples that are the exception, not the norm. Does it really seem reasonable to you that Heavy Cavalry charging my infantry column from the flank in open terrain takes 2k losses and is disordered while my infantry lose 200 and stand firm? Should that be the norm? That's what I see happening over and over.

[MarcelJV]

Dead on mate. You should never charge formed infantry. Historically speaking (waterloo) when a cavalry charge hit the fronts of units and were not well supported infantry calmly ( can not image how, considering horses are about to hit you) formed square. Some simple stay in place, fire a volley then fix bayonets and massacre the cavalry.

When you read about cavalry massacring the infantry, it is a case of lines breaking and routing in the face of a cavalry charge. Eylau, is a case in point, parts of the Russians broke and ran and were cut down, but many units stood their ground and caused huge casualties to the French charge.

It is a misconception that if cavalry hit a line of infantry they will do major damage, the reality is that the opposite is true. Horses have no love of a bayonnet whether the infantry is in a square or not. The advantage of a sqaure is the compact nature, and the difficulty of getting the mass of horses to hit the square (smaller target), also the ranks of bayonnets that the horse did not like. A infantry line that gets in a volley, at close range, will do major damage in hit riders and horses, which have a habit of falling down making an obsticle for the following horse, which may, if spacing is not correct, trip over them. So a charge against the front of a units was not successful unless you got the infantry to break and run.

Rear Charges: Charges from behind may seem like they should work but well trained infantry not pinned from the front, simple turn about (face 180 degree) in place (this is not the same as wheeling the line around) and are now facing the cavalry. Failure to turn around or notice a charge would have a deadly affect on the infantry as you have trouble fighting objects behind you.

Flank charges: This too may seem like it is a big win for the cavalry, but consider that if the cavalry line hits the side of a 3 rank line some will spill to the front and some to the rear. The cavalry to the rear has a nice target, the cavalry to the front becomes a nice target. Even then if the line notices the attack from the flank a end company could be turned to face the charge or form square. This will reduce the impact of the charge.

Ok, last bit. The game is played in Division level units. Divisions where built in groups of brigades or reginments, with sub components of battalions and companies. Even in line formation the division is not in one long 3 rank line (2 ranks for British). More than likely 50% of the divsion is in the front and lined up. This leaves 50% of the division to face a flank or rear charge. Even within the sub units 50-66% are on the front line with a reserve behind them. Divisions that are disorganized may not have the second line or have sub components that are in depth, which makes them more likely to take casualties from a cavalry charge. But fresh or units with little damage and good training had little to fear from a cavalry charge.

Hopefully you get some idea of how risky a cavalry charge was. You need to go after units in disorder and then from the rear or flank. But from the front you are subject to fire. and if you fail. you are subject to follow up fire from other units. Cavalry are too expensive to throw away like this.

I think the game models this very well and I have not found any thing about detailed combat to complain about, other than not be able to save and the occasional CTD (Crash To Desktop).

Good work Eric B.

ORIGINAL: Jordan

The reason it was not the norm is that cavalry did not bother to charge well formed troops, unless they could catch them by surprise or in the flanks.

A cavalry charge is really about intimidation. If good infantry stood its ground and delivered a volley then the frontal cavalry charge was a waste of time.

[Malagant]

Hopefully you get some idea of how risky a cavalry charge was. You need to go after units in disorder and then from the rear or flank. But from the front you are subject to fire. and if you fail. you are subject to follow up fire from other units. Cavalry are too expensive to throw away like this.

Marcel, we can agree to disagree about the affects of cavalry on troops that fail to form square when charged. By your description, troops should have never formed square at all! Just stand in your line and fire a volley! Or just stay in column, since 'some' of the cavalry will spill around to the front and make a nice target! Nevermind the losses taken by the impact and shock of the actual horse and rider driving home into the side of a formation...it sounds to me like you're trying to tell me that cavalry are not effective shock weapons, and the only use for them is to pursue troops already routed. Silly me, I'd thought Heavy Cavalry and Lancers purposely built to break infantry formations...

But regardless what you or I THINK the results SHOULD be, if the severe damage to cavalry with negligible effect on the infantry is the intended design of the game, then TEACH THE AI TO NOT DO IT!

Having the AI army take his own cavalry out of the battle by charging infantry in the open (which, imo, should result in either a) the infantry forming square and repulsing the charge or b) the infantry failing to form square and being squashed) reduces the tactical battles to being more tedium than fun, as one simply goes through the motions of mopping up every enemy army that throws itself at you piecemeal with wanton disregard for it's own safety or intelligent use of it's combined forces.


BTW, I know I've been sounding amazingly negative, but that is not my intent. I sincerely love this game, and haven't stopped playing since I downloaded it a week and a half ago! I've also never been part of a game where the development team is so forthcoming and open and receptive on the message board. Despite the interface problems and few bugs, this game is incredible!! [&o]

[ahauschild]

I agree with Malagant on this. Overall I love the game, it is allot of fun, and can be even more challenging with some tweaking in the future.

But, I totaly disagree with the current concept of cav. What was the true use of Cav in Nap times. That is the question. And is the game engine reflecting the use of Cav as we understand it. I think not exactly.

First of all, not all Cav is the same, there where very obvious differents betwhen the major groups of cav.

In the Game we have the following, with the Historical actual examples.

Irr. Cav = Cossacks and most likeley Landwer Cav (Some Landwer Cav was actuly pretty good, but in general not)
Light Cav = Hussars and I would put some Landwer in it.
Cav = This is a bit questionable, possibly Dragoons, but most would consider them heavy.
Lancers = Ok, no doupt, those are Uhlans and such.
Heavy Cav = Curass and Dragoons ussuly fall under it, they did not neccesarly have the Curass breast plate, but did ussuly have very big horses.


Each of these groups had pretty much designed main duties, and some could fill in partialy in other duties.

Irr. Cav = These guys had very little tactical value on the battlefield. They where notories for not being reliable and in general would never be put to the charge unless a unsupported routed unit was presenting itself. Their job was scouting and raiding the supply lines of the enemy.

Light Cav = These are the Glory hounds, great outfits, great flamboyance. They came in a mix, some great, some no better then Irr. Cav. Their job was mostly to scout before the battle, and to be used in against troops that are wavering and or routing allready, In general they would not charge against a ordered unit.

Cav = They are againt somewhat abstract, I am guessing they make up whatever lower or higher mix of the various troops and would be used more actively on the battlefield. Could be Dragoons, or well established Hussars or unreliable heavy. Not really sure on that category.

Lancers = These guys did allot of duties well, they where on light enough horses to pursuit even fleeing heavy cav and with their lances actuly did well in picking the currass on a route of. The did have accounts of charging squares and breaking them, but I am sure they did not relish in it, I think this guys pretty much can fill all roles, exept they are not as sturdy in the long run as Curass.

Heavy Cav = These are guys armed with big swords on big monster horses, often employing the Curass Beast Plate. The plate itself did not protect againt close range musket balls, but did provide excellent protection when faced with Bayoneet, Lance or Sword impact. Often the Curass was only used on the front, without a matching back plate. This guys actuly where expected to charge into formed units. Now I am sure they would not do so well against a Guard or high Moral Line Unit, but they should, especialy if they are flanking or even rear charging perform extremely well against normal line and militia and such should pretty much evaporate in front of them.

As you can see, I would never expect a Irr. Cav unit to charge a Line Inf Unit and to do well, if they did, it should be the rare exeption. But I can exept on the other hand that if most any inf unit is hit in the REAR flank or the REAR direct by a Lancer or worth, a Curass charge, they should in most cases either form square, or break and die. Sure, once in a rare while the Inf unit may manage to turn the Column, or manage to reverse the Line, but most units would go in immediate disorder if such an order was given. Very few units under good leadership managed such exeptional manuver feats on the battlefield.

Imagine this. You just marched 2 days straight to get to this battle. It was a drizzle night, you are wet, tired and exausted in general. The morning fog lifts and you look across the field to see Divisions of enemy tropps. A few hours later you had to fire a few volleys and the smoke of the black powder is obscuring allot of the battlefield. Another infantry Division is advancing in Battlecolumn onto your location, your mouth is so dry from biting the tip of the paper cartriges. You cannot hear anything anymore, the musket blast having numbed your hearing a long time ago, and you basicly follow the command of the seargant to fire by visual or by when your buddy next to you fires. Then you feel the ground vibrating, and you hear a low rumble. The rumble gets lowder, you dont dare to turn to look as this will get you a whipping from the sarg after the battle. Succenly there is confusion, the Sarg is yelling something, but you cant make it out. He is making the square signal, ....oh no, must be a cav charge. You try to find your way with the rest of your company to fill the assigned face of the square, but to late, giant horses with giant devils are in your mids, hacking, slashing. Your run, only the thought to get away exist, and it is the last thought you have as a slash from a heavy sabre severs your spine in the back of your neck.

Again, a frontal charge, should have a good chance with good line troops to repel a cav charge, but a regular line unit that is hit in the rear by a lancer or heavy cav unit and does not form square should 90% of the times be dead. Period.

Right now all cav acts only as Light, they all pretty much are only good for charging disrupted units, any attempt to use them against formed units risk them being slaughtered. That does not appear correct historicaly.

But then again, maybe I am wrong and have read all the wrong things, and played all the wrong miniature games that have tried to reflect this area for many many years.

[ericbabe]

How about this as a proposed tweak:

Cavalry + HvCavalry charges vs formed infantry in open terrain get increased flanking damage... 3x current rate? 5x? With the 50% total strength cap remaining in effect... Also give them a higher chance to break the formation of the unit they charge in this situation.


Also: Coordinating AI use of cavalry with its other units is one the list of AI tweaks I'm planning to make. And there may be a bug in the code that tells the AI not to charge formed infantry in rough terrain / fortresses as I noticed that AI cavalry sometimes hurls itself at the fortresses for no good reason.


Eric

[ahauschild]

I think if they are attackig a flanking or rear hex, this would be a step in the right direction.
I think another thing you should do is check when they form square, currently they always make it, never once disordering in the process. That should be fixed. If a unit changes to square during a charge receival, they should have notable chance of being disorderd before the charge resolution.

[MarcelJV]

Marcel, we can agree to disagree about the affects of cavalry on troops that fail to form square when charged. By your description, troops should have never formed square at all! Just stand in your line and fire a volley! Or just stay in column, since 'some' of the cavalry will spill around to the front and make a nice target! Nevermind the losses taken by the impact and shock of the actual horse and rider driving home into the side of a formation...it sounds to me like you're trying to tell me that cavalry are not effective shock weapons, and the only use for them is to pursue troops already routed. Silly me, I'd thought Heavy Cavalry and Lancers purposely built to break infantry formations...

You are of course correct in that Cavalry was a shock weapon, my point was that if the unit is well trained, not severly disordered, then it could stand up to a cavalry charge. You may have missed the part where I stated that if the unit broke and ran then they were toast. But if they held their ground then they could deal allot of damage to the cavalry, I did not say they would not be defeated. I did point out how they could react to various cavalry attacks. The side impact is over blown as you only have 3 ranks to hit and you lose shock value after 5- 10 rows of men. Horses will only hit bodies for so long before they have had enough, or better yet trip over the bodies they have knocked down. A very small fraction of the cavalry line actually hits the side of a line, the rest wrap around. Then the cavalry come to a virtual stand still and it is a melee fight from there, not much shock from that point on.

The point of a square is to improve the belief in survival of infantry, make it impossible to not be out flanked by cavalry, and provide mutual support for adjacent squares. This is not a desirable position if artillery is near by as you are expectionally vulnerable to artillery fire, so it is not a desired formation.

I am just trying to say that there is no basis in fact to support that Cavalry can break infantry in good order. It is possible but not likely. So I feel the game models this well.

Since I did not write the code is it not possible to fail the emergency square check and then interpret that as they did not even try so we will not disorganize them.

Anyway I think it is a cool game too.[:D]