Combined Historical Scenario - Aircraft

[Captain Cruft]

OK this is cleared up now, check out this thread for the explanation.

The simplest way to deal with it is to define at least one air group that starts with each type of plane that you want to appear on the upgrade list. Planes that are only "got to" as upgrades will appear on the list but only after a group has actually converted to that type.

[timtom]

Noticed that the CHS A6M2 is one hex short of being able to cover the distance from Rabaul to Lunga. Is this part of the master plan?

[Lemurs!]

you have got to be kidding me... range is the biggest pain in the butt.
i will look into it for the 1.2 release.

Mike

[Bradley7735]

In my game with the AI, betties from Rabaul are escored when striking Lunga. It's possible that the escorts are actually coming from Shortlands, but I think they're coming from Rabaul.

bc

[timtom]

Oops, sorry guys, my mistake...[>:]

[timtom]

Okay, at least I'm not imagining things. The screenie below is from Scn.155, while the one above is from scn.50. Scn. 154 is same as 155, leastways on my machine.

[Bradley7735]

I think I'm running Scen 155.

[Lemurs!]

Okay, it is not going to be increased.
The problem is this stupid flat map. In game Rabaul to Henderson field is 660 miles. In real life it is 565 miles.

Mike

[timtom]

Excuse my ignorance, but isn't the PBY Catalina and the Catalina I the same aircraft?

Also, with range 20/27, the B-29 will be bombing Japan on extended range (distance 21 hex) out of Saipan.

[timtom]

[:)]

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Okay, it is not going to be increased.
The problem is this stupid flat map. In game Rabaul to Henderson field is 660 miles. In real life it is 565 miles.

Mike

Is the distance you quote statute or nautical miles? I have it as 647 Statute miles (562 Nautical Miles) between Honiara to Rabaul, and the map is in statute miles, not nautical miles.

[Sardaukar]

Hmmm..just did play first 10 days both AB normal and extended map scenarios. Have you folks toned down Allied medium/light bombers like Bleinheim and Martin 139 somehow?? They don't seem to make any impression now...in other scenarios I at least got some hits on AKs and such from 10 000 ft [:)]. Or maybe it's 1.6 patch. Well...I had first ever Night Naval attacks in my games..and 2 in row !! [:D] By Bleinheim IFs, no less. Didn't know what else to do with them..[:'(].

[Lemurs!]

Andrew, are you sure the map is statute? I had assumed nautical since the ships are travelling in knots. The instructions do not say one way or another.

Also, my atlas, which i could be reading wrong says 565 statute miles .

I have never seen an aircrafts range listed in nautical miles but the A6M2 is supposedly capable of 600 miles out/back plus a little for combat.

Mike

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!
Andrew, are you sure the map is statute?

Yes, it is in statute miles. For an example, take a look at the distance chart I include with my map documentation. All of the calculations and measurements I made when making my map used statute miles. The official map seems to match statute miles more closely as well. On this topic, this comment was posted by Joel Billings last year:

I am not 100% sure about this, but I think when the map was first created, although it was planned to be set up in nautical miles, it was actually set up in statute miles. Due to issues with the flat map versus round world, I think I was unable to determine for sure what was done by the artists. Although this was several years ago, I recall thinking that although the map was probably done in statute miles, that it was ok for the ships to be in knots due to the inherent distance distortions on the map and the normal friction of war (ships rarely move in a direct line at rated speeds for a 24 hour period - zigzag anyone?). If the aircraft are rated in statute miles based on what you have determined from looking at sources, I'd go with that. I'm usually one that is precise about things, but came to realize on WitP that there was no way to get it perfect given the limitations of the system we were dealing with. Making a game, even a military simulation, is as much art as it is science. When I spoke with Mike Wood about this, he reminded me that speeds and ranges of aircraft depended much on the altitude being flown at, the weapons load out of the aircraft, the weather, and probably many other factors. Given the scale of this game, their's going to be abstraction and simplification, so what's usually important is to stay consistent from one weapon to another as much as the sources allow while getting the desired "feel".

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: timtom

Excuse my ignorance, but isn't the PBY Catalina and the Catalina I the same aircraft?

Also, with range 20/27, the B-29 will be bombing Japan on extended range (distance 21 hex) out of Saipan.

I don't believe so..The planes are not the same.I believe the PBY Cat is intended to be the more modern PBY5a which also had wheels for land based capability..The earlier model did not have these,(along with some of the other amenities)..

[Don Bowen]

I think timtom may be right on this one. The PBY-5a was basically a PBY-5 with amphibious modifications - a retractable tricycle undercarriage. It was the same size (except for height, due to the undercarriage arrangements) and had the same engines. However, the amphibious gear (and other mods) added over 3300 pounds to the PBY-5a, with a corresponding decrease in speed, rate of climb, service ceiling, and range.

Since both the US Navy and allied air forces operated a mixture of PBY-5 and PBY-5a the Catalina and PBY Catalina should be identical in game terms.

United States Navy Aircraft sicne 1911 gives the following stats:

PBY-5:
Empty Weight: 17,526 lbs
Gross Weight: 34,000 lbs
Max Speed: 189 mph at 7000 feet
Cruising Speed: 115 mph
Climb: 690 feet/minute
Service Ceiling: 18,100 feet
Range: 2,990 miles
Armament: 2 X 0.303, 2 x 0.50, 4 x 1000 lb bombs (or equivelant)

PBY-5a:
Empty Weight: 20,910 lbs
Gross Weight: 35,420 lbs
Max Speed: 175 mph at 7000 feet
Cruising Speed: 113 mph
Climb: 620 feet/minute
Service Ceiling: 13,000 feet
Range: 2,350 miles
Armament: 3 X 0.303, 2 x 0.50, 4 x 1000 lb bombs (or equivelant)

For both:
Engines: 2 x 1,200 hp R-1830-92

There were other sub-variations of the PBY-5, including the Naval Aircraft Factory PBN-1 Catalinas and Canadian PB2B Cansos, each with slight variation in specs.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


I think timtom may be right on this one. The PBY-5a was basically a PBY-5 with amphibious modifications - a retractable tricycle undercarriage. It was the same size (except for height, due to the undercarriage arrangements) and had the same engines. However, the amphibious gear (and other mods) added over 3300 pounds to the PBY-5a, with a corresponding decrease in speed, rate of climb, service ceiling, and range.

Since both the US Navy and allied air forces operated a mixture of PBY-5 and PBY-5a the Catalina and PBY Catalina should be identical in game terms.

United States Navy Aircraft sicne 1911 gives the following stats:

PBY-5:
Empty Weight: 17,526 lbs
Gross Weight: 34,000 lbs
Max Speed: 189 mph at 7000 feet
Cruising Speed: 115 mph
Climb: 690 feet/minute
Service Ceiling: 18,100 feet
Range: 2,990 miles
Armament: 2 X 0.303, 2 x 0.50, 4 x 1000 lb bombs (or equivelant)

PBY-5a:
Empty Weight: 20,910 lbs
Gross Weight: 35,420 lbs
Max Speed: 175 mph at 7000 feet
Cruising Speed: 113 mph
Climb: 620 feet/minute
Service Ceiling: 13,000 feet
Range: 2,350 miles
Armament: 3 X 0.303, 2 x 0.50, 4 x 1000 lb bombs (or equivelant)

For both:
Engines: 2 x 1,200 hp R-1830-92

There were other sub-variations of the PBY-5, including the Naval Aircraft Factory PBN-1 Catalinas and Canadian PB2B Cansos, each with slight variation in specs.

Uhhh....O.K.....Don...Uh,how about offering a nice "consolation prize",like maybe making the "Black Cat" night capability with an increased night torpedo attack capability ala history??[;)]

[worr]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

My sources say that the P-47D was the first model to be used in the Pacific, not the P-47C.

47C

Yes.

Looks like someone else caught this back in February before my other thread this week.

Worr, out

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


I think timtom may be right on this one. The PBY-5a was basically a PBY-5 with amphibious modifications - a retractable tricycle undercarriage. It was the same size (except for height, due to the undercarriage arrangements) and had the same engines. However, the amphibious gear (and other mods) added over 3300 pounds to the PBY-5a, with a corresponding decrease in speed, rate of climb, service ceiling, and range.

Since both the US Navy and allied air forces operated a mixture of PBY-5 and PBY-5a the Catalina and PBY Catalina should be identical in game terms.

United States Navy Aircraft sicne 1911 gives the following stats:

PBY-5:
Empty Weight: 17,526 lbs
Gross Weight: 34,000 lbs
Max Speed: 189 mph at 7000 feet
Cruising Speed: 115 mph
Climb: 690 feet/minute
Service Ceiling: 18,100 feet
Range: 2,990 miles
Armament: 2 X 0.303, 2 x 0.50, 4 x 1000 lb bombs (or equivelant)

PBY-5a:
Empty Weight: 20,910 lbs
Gross Weight: 35,420 lbs
Max Speed: 175 mph at 7000 feet
Cruising Speed: 113 mph
Climb: 620 feet/minute
Service Ceiling: 13,000 feet
Range: 2,350 miles
Armament: 3 X 0.303, 2 x 0.50, 4 x 1000 lb bombs (or equivelant)

For both:
Engines: 2 x 1,200 hp R-1830-92

There were other sub-variations of the PBY-5, including the Naval Aircraft Factory PBN-1 Catalinas and Canadian PB2B Cansos, each with slight variation in specs.

Uhhh....O.K.....Don...Uh,how about offering a nice "consolation prize",like maybe making the "Black Cat" night capability with an increased night torpedo attack capability ala history??[;)]

I am curious as to why the PBY is unable to fly from the west coast to hawaii? flying is how they got there, they were not shipped...

(a) Of the 81 available patrol planes 54 were new PBY-5's; 27 were PBY-
3's having over three years service. The PBY-5's were recently ferried
to Hawaii, arriving on the following dates:

Squadron Number Arrival date Squadron Number Arrival date
Planes Planes
VP-11 12 28 Oct. 1941 VP-23 12 23 Nov. 1941
VP-24 6 28 Oct. 1941 VP-14 12 23 Nov. 1941.
VP-12 12 8 Nov. 1941

(b) The PBY-5 airplanes were experiencing the usual shake-down
difficulties and were hampered in maintenance by an almost complete
absence of spare parts. In additions a program for installation of
leakproof tanks, armor, and modified


and:

June 7, 1943 our squadron was relieved of duties in the Caribbean and relocated to San Diego, were we got new planes, PBY-5's and flew them out to Kaneohe, Hawaii. From there, VP-34 was again split up. Three were sent on a big hush-hush mission. Later, we found out that those three planes were to follow Mrs. Roosevelt on her flight to Australia in case they had problems and needed rescue or to be picked up. Six planes, including mine were sent to Midway. Five to Canton Island, and one at Johnston Island.


and:

6 (Flying Boat) Squadron

Under Lend-Lease provisions, in April 1943 the first of 22 PBY-5 flying boats were ferried by American crews from San Diego to Lauthala Bay in Fiji, where 6 (Flying Boat) Squadron (codes XX-x) commanded by Wing Commander G.C.Stead,
with Squadron leaders R.B.L McGregor and A.V.Jury as Flight commanders, was officially formed in May 1943, along with 3 (Flying Boat) Operational training unit (codes GF-x).

I rest my case...

[el cid again]

I would like to use the japanese names with the allied code name in parentheses. However This is not possible in all cases due to limited space in the name field. Since we know all the Allied codenames, and many people depend greatly on those codenames for keeping them straight, I am in favor of using both where possible and using only the allied name when necessary.

It might be better to go the other way. Code names have several problems:

1) There is not always a code name. Some planes were not known to the Allies and did not get one. One plane worth adding is a two engine flying boat - very economical and fine for patrol work - but it was wholly unknown until the end of the war. No code name. [H9A]

2) There is sometimes more than one code name.

3) WITP seems to use official names - although sometimes omitting the last number for navy names. That may imply more than one version is included in the type.