PBEM Air Action Phase

[Shannon V. OKeets]

PBEM Air Action Phase

If you haven’t already, you should read through the postings in the PBEM Overview thread to get a sense of how the communications between players will be performed.

This thread focuses on minimizing the number of emails needed to implement air combat decisions. Here are the different subphases of air movement and combat, in order:
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1 Fly combat air patrol (CAP) to hex
2 Fly attacking air units to hex (or sea box)
3 Fly defending air units to hex (or sea box)
4 Intercept defending air units
5 Intercept attacking air units

6 Air to air combat
6.1 Place attacker’s fighters and bombers in sequence for air to air combat
6.2 Place defender’s fighters and bombers in sequence for air to air combat
6.3 Roll dice for defender & choose which units take casualties / get cleared through
6.4 Roll dice for attacker & choose which units take casualties / get cleared through
6.5 Defender decides whether to continue air to air combat
6.6 Attacker decides whether to continue air to air combat

7 Anti-air combat by defender on attacker’s planes
8 Anti-air combat by attacker on defender’s planes (occurs in naval air attacks)

9 Air bombardment (port attack, naval air attack, ground strike, ground support, strategic bombing, or carpet bombing) or paradrop or air supply.

10 Return attacker’s plane to base
11 Return defender’s planes to base

If I have forgotten something or got some things wrong, let me know.
------------------------------------------

Ideally, we want the phasing player to go through this sequence without having the non-phasing player read and answer several emails. Basically, let the phasing player just move all his air units and resolve the combats.

First, often times there are no decisions to make and MWIF will skip over involving the players in those situations. For example, if there is only one bomber and one defending fighter in an air to air combat, MWIF can perform the combat automatically, with the exception of whether to continue should the first round of combat yield no results. Other examples are items 7 and 8 which only require input from the players when implementing combat results.

To that end, we should note that items 2, 4, 6.1, 6.4, 6.6, 9, and 10 are decided by the phasing player and are non-issues.

I think standing orders can readily be devised for 1, 3, 5, 6.2, 6.5, 7, 8, and 11. CAP (1) is obvious.

Flying intercepts (5) against ground strike, port attacks, ground support, paradrops, etcetera could be set up as follows. Each fighter could be assigned certain hexes (or sea boxes) which it is tasked to defend. There could be many hexes assigned to each fighter and they would be in priority order - which to defend first. Another part of the definition of which hexes to defend could be something general, like, against any paradrops or air supply missions within range of the fighter. Flying defending ground support (3) could work the same way. The only difficulty I see with this is the situation where you have 4 or 5 fighters with overlapping defensive assignments. You don’t want them all to go to the first hex that is attacked and have nothing in reserve for other attacks during the turn. Does anyone have an idea how to handle this situation?

Placing fighters and bombers in order (6.2) is usually pretty easy and we could either simply leave it up to the AI or give the players some simple alternative strategies to choose from.

Where to return to base (11) should be easy to decide. You either want to remain in position to defend again next turn, move closer to the front line because you are planning to advance, or run for the hills. The player would just specify which hex the plane returns to.

Which units to shoot down when anti-air combat succeeds is pretty obvious. We should just let the AI do it.

The trickiest of these would be 6.5 and if we give the non-phasing player enough options for how to decide whether to stay and fight or return to base, even this should be doable. For instance, here is my first pass at different standing orders for breaking off combat:
(1) abort at the first opportunity,
(2) continue pressing the attack until the bitter end,
(3) abort the attack if the difference in the front fighter numbers exceeds some limit (player specifies how much),
(4) abort the attack if so many bombers or bomber points get through to the target (player specifies how much),
(5) abort the attack if so many planes are lost,
(6) abort the attack if I take more loses that the enemy (player specifies difference that needs to be exceeded).

The player could select one or more of the abort conditions and if any of them were met, then his planes would break off the attack. We could even use Boolean logic if that seems important (if X and Y but not Z then Stay/Abort).

Now, for those of you keeping score, this leaves 6.3 and 6.4 where sometimes the phasing player and sometimes the non-phasing player decides which planes to kill, abort, or clear through. I frequently find these to be very difficult decisions. We could give some options like:
(1) hurt his fighters before his bombers (or vice-a-versa),
(2) hurt my fighters before my bombers (when choosing your own losses),
(3) alternate between fighters and bombers,
(4) hurt his fighters if he has better fighters than I do (+1 or some such),
(5) maintain a +1 fighter differential; if that is ok, then hurt his bombers.

If we can provide good options for standing orders, then the non-phasing player should not have to participate directly in air combat operations.

Comments?

P.S. I have attached below parts of some posts that appeared in PBEM Overview and seem relevant to this thread.

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Sometimes [for] intercept's against more important ground strikes, port attacks, strat bombing ... [the players want more direct control].
============================
The only way I've seen this work for PBEM games is when both phasing and non-phasing players are forced to select from various mission types. In TOAW these would be:
1-air superiority(half the planes attack anything that flies going after fighters first),
2- ground support(!/2 planes support attacks/defense on the ground)
3- Interdiction(planes attack units moving along roads -try to avoid air to air combat) and
4-rest(recoup losses).
First an overall air superiority ratio is determined based on air to air strength totals within range of a given hex.
============================
Normally my opponent would do the intercepts and battles alone, using trying to do what is best for me: Say for example that a my opponent strat bomb Berlin and I have a fighter based there, it is pretty lilely that I would have intercepted with it and fight out the battle, so my opponent does that for me (in a computer game the AI could do it).

However there are cases when things are not that clear cut, for example a fight over Gibraltar with lots of planes on both sides, do I save some until next impulse, do I continue the air fight even though my odds are not that good, Gibraltar is at stake here, I might want to take bigger risks.

It is difficult for a computer to understand if a hex is important or not, Maybe it could be possible for to mark certain hexes for air battle where I don't allow the AI cannot take control (my opponent doesn't have to know which hexes). If I also can state at what odds level I want to continue a fight and change it on a a hex basis, for example abort the fight if odds at +2/-2
============================

[Mziln]

[:)] Don't forget...

If you are using Bounce Combat Option 22

If your using 22.4.2 Artillery Option 3 (AsA) anti-aircraft fire

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

[:)] Don't forget...

If you are using Bounce Combat Option 22

If your using 22.4.2 Artillery Option 3 (AsA) anti-aircraft fire

Yes, I did forget Bounce Combat. And after I had reminded myself not to. If only I had listened to myself better.

[Froonp]

The only difficulty I see with this is the situation where you have 4 or 5 fighters with overlapping defensive assignments. You don’t want them all to go to the first hex that is attacked and have nothing in reserve for other attacks during the turn. Does anyone have an idea how to handle this situation?

Maybe the player could set up an "involvement percentage", that is he says "I'll only use X % of the aircraft available for a mission for standing orders in a certain area of the theater" (again, the game will have to have "areas" defined, maybe saying that all hexes that are X hex away for a city are the area of this city - i.e. the Moscow Area could be all hexes 2 hexes from Moscow).

Or more simle, the player should be able to decide (in some sort dialogue for general options about the standing orders) that he will keep X planes in reserve for the future impulse. Again, this decision should ideally be tied to an area.

I often use this when playing, i.e deciding to commit only X% of my fighter force, or deciding to keep 1 FTR in the Ploesti area as long as the Russian has a STR that can come and bomb it, etc...).

[Froonp]

Where to return to base (11) should be easy to decide. You either want to remain in position to defend again next turn, move closer to the front line because you are planning to advance, or run for the hills. The player would just specify which hex the plane returns to.

This decision can also be tied to where is the nearest face-up HQ that I intended to use for reorganizing planes.

[Froonp]

Placing fighters and bombers in order (6.2) is usually pretty easy and we could either simply leave it up to the AI or give the players some simple alternative strategies to choose from.

Could be (some ideas to feed your thoughts) :

Placing Fighters :
(1) Best Air to Air strengh in front
(2a) If Air to air is equal, place the plane with the lowest Tactical factor / Strat factor / Air to Sea factor (choice) in front .
(2b) If Air to air is equal, place the cheapest plane in front.
(3a) If there are Carrier planes involved, always place them in front of the LBA with equal air to air factor.
(3b) If there are Carrier planes involved, always place them behind the LBA with equal air to air factor.
(4) If Air to air is equal, place the FTR produced by the nearest belligerent in front (i.e. CW FTR in front because it comes back in reinforcement nearer than an US plane).
(5) If Air to air is equal, place the FTR produced by the richest belligerent in front.

Placing Bombers :
First, bombers have a factor that decide if it is "good" at a mission. Tactical factor for Ground Strikes and Ground Support, Strategical factor for Strat bomb & Carpets, and Air to Sea Factor for Air to Sea combat and Port Attacks.
(1) Place the "losse taker" on the front (The "losse taker" is a crappy bomber that I have flown on this mission only to take the eventual losses).
(2) Place the best bomber (best factor for the mission) on the rear.
(3a) If bombers are equal (same factor for the mission), place the one with the better air to air strengh in front.
(3b) If bombers are equal (same factor for the mission), place the one with the better air to air strengh on the rear.
(4a) If bombers are equal (same factor for the mission) and air to air is equal too, place in front the one with the worse other factor (tactical / Strat / air to Sea)
(4b) If bombers are equal (same factor for the mission) and air to air is equal too, place on the rear the one with the worse other factor (tactical / Strat / air to Sea)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Where to return to base (11) should be easy to decide. You either want to remain in position to defend again next turn, move closer to the front line because you are planning to advance, or run for the hills. The player would just specify which hex the plane returns to.

This decision can also be tied to where is the nearest face-up HQ that I intended to use for reorganizing planes.

Yes, I agree. If we simply let the non-phasing player designate a hex for the plane's return to base, I think we have done enough.

[Froonp]

Yes, I agree. If we simply let the non-phasing player designate a hex for the plane's return to base, I think we have done enough.

Maybe you could add to the game the "Rebase Area". the "Rebase Area" would be an area included in a zone X hexes away from a designated hex. The Phasing player could set up a number of Rebase Areas that will be used by the A.I. when he becomes the non phasing player, so that he is sure his planes will rebase in the right area after having used standing orders.

The game should also be able to predict if the rebase areas designated by the player are large enough to accomodate all the planes that will have to rebase after a given Air Mission, so that it only rebase in the designated rebase area the best planes. The extra planes would be rebases the earest possible to the designated rebase areas, leaving room for the best planes.

[Froonp]

I made a mistake, and would have liked to delete this post (I basically quoted my own post by error)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The only difficulty I see with this is the situation where you have 4 or 5 fighters with overlapping defensive assignments. You don’t want them all to go to the first hex that is attacked and have nothing in reserve for other attacks during the turn. Does anyone have an idea how to handle this situation?

Maybe the player could set up an "involvement percentage", that is he says "I'll only use X % of the aircraft available for a mission for standing orders in a certain area of the theater" (again, the game will have to have "areas" defined, maybe saying that all hexes that are X hex away for a city are the area of this city - i.e. the Moscow Area could be all hexes 2 hexes from Moscow).

Or more simle, the player should be able to decide (in some sort dialogue for general options about the standing orders) that he will keep X planes in reserve for the future impulse. Again, this decision should ideally be tied to an area.

I often use this when playing, i.e deciding to comit only X% of my fighter force, or deciding to keep 1 FTR in the Ploesti area as long as the Russian has a STR that can come and bomb it, etc...).

This is tricky. There are so many different tasks a fighter might do. Perhaps something along the line of "commit no more than 1 (or some other number) fighter(s) to defending this hex; choose the nearest/farthest/weakest/strongest/least centrally located." By the last I am thinking of looking at all the planes available to defend a front and keeping the planes that can reach a lot of hexes unused if at all possible. My logic is that the centrally located planes make for the best reserve.

Your option of keeping X planes in reserve is a good one. That could be linked to a group of planes (2 out of these 6) or to an area (1 plane within reach of Ploesti). This also comes up when wanting to prefer future paradrops on capitals and major ports. I would prefer not to have MWIF work out a percentage -just have the player give a specific number.

[Froonp]

There are so many different tasks a fighter might do. Perhaps something along the line of "commit no more than 1 (or some other number) fighter(s) to defending this hex; choose the nearest/farthest/weakest/strongest/least centrally located."

Exactly.
Basically, this is what I mentaly do when assessing the planes I'll send to intercept the enemy, when I'm the non phasing player.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Placing fighters and bombers in order (6.2) is usually pretty easy and we could either simply leave it up to the AI or give the players some simple alternative strategies to choose from.

Could be (some ideas to feed your thoughts) :

Placing Fighters :
(1) Best Air to Air strengh in front
(2a) If Air to air is equal, place the plane with the lowest Tactical factor / Strat factor / Air to Sea factor (choice) in front .
(2b) If Air to air is equal, place the cheapest plane in front.
(3a) If there are Carrier planes involved, always place them in front of the LBA with equal air to air factor.
(3b) If there are Carrier planes involved, always place them behind the LBA with equal air to air factor.
(4) If Air to air is equal, place the FTR produced by the nearest belligerent in front (i.e. CW FTR in front because it comes back in reinforcement nearer than an US plane).
(5) If Air to air is equal, place the FTR produced by the richest belligerent in front.

Placing Bombers :
First, bombers have a factor that decide if it is "good" at a mission. Tactical factor for Ground Strikes and Ground Support, Strategical factor for Strat bomb & Carpets, and Air to Sea Factor for Air to Sea combat and Port Attacks.
(1) Place the "losse taker" on the front (The "losse taker" is a crappy bomber that I have flown on this mission only to take the eventual losses).
(2) Place the best bomber (best factor for the mission) on the rear.
(3a) If bombers are equal (same factor for the mission), place the one with the better air to air strengh in front.
(3b) If bombers are equal (same factor for the mission), place the one with the better air to air strengh on the rear.
(4a) If bombers are equal (same factor for the mission) and air to air is equal too, place in front the one with the worse other factor (tactical / Strat / air to Sea)
(4b) If bombers are equal (same factor for the mission) and air to air is equal too, place on the rear the one with the worse other factor (tactical / Strat / air to Sea)

As a player I like all these. As a programmer I am appalled. Part of my programming anguish comes from my player knowledge that you probably haven't covered all the possibilities.

Let's design what we, the players, want first. I'll let the programmer worry about implementing it later.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Yes, I agree. If we simply let the non-phasing player designate a hex for the plane's return to base, I think we have done enough.

Maybe you could add to the game the "Rebase Area". the "Rebase Area" would be an area included in a zone X hexes away from a designated hex. The Phasing player could set up a number of Rebase Areas that will be used by the A.I. when he becomes the non phasing player, so that he is sure his planes will rebase in the right area after having used standing orders.

The game should also be able to predict if the rebase areas designated by the player are large enough to accomodate all the planes that will have to rebase after a given Air Mission, so that it only rebase in the designated rebase area the best planes. The extra planes would be rebases the earest possible to the designated rebase areas, leaving room for the best planes.

This strikes me as too complicated. If you have a group of planes that you want to return to base near an HQ or in a city or in some other desirable location (e.g., forest) then you, the player, have to work out which planes will return to which hexes. After all that is how it is done over the board. Hopefully the game interface will let you see (and perhaps inform you of potential problems) where you are planning to have all your planes at the end of the turn. One additional capability might be to designate several return to base hexes in a priority order for individual planes.

[Froonp]

If you have a group of planes that you want to return to base near an HQ or in a city or in some other desirable location (e.g., forest) then you, the player, have to work out which planes will return to which hexes. After all that is how it is done over the board.

I thought that if the return to base of the non phasing player's planes must be made automatically during the phasing player play, following the non phasing player's standing orders, it would be simpler to define vague rebase areas than strict rebase hexes for each and every plane having standing orders. Maybe I had something wrong, it could certainly be the case as English is not my mother tongue.
Cheers !
Patrice

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

If you have a group of planes that you want to return to base near an HQ or in a city or in some other desirable location (e.g., forest) then you, the player, have to work out which planes will return to which hexes. After all that is how it is done over the board.

I thought that if the return to base of the non phasing player's planes must be made automatically during the phasing player play, following the non phasing player's standing orders, it would be simpler to define vague rebase areas than strict rebase hexes for each and every plane having standing orders. Maybe I had something wrong, it could certainly be the case as English is not my mother tongue.
Cheers !
Patrice

You got it right.

It's just that when I sit over the board as the non-phasng player I have a pretty good idea of where I want to have my planes return to base. At least half the time it is right back to where they started from. As the German in Barbarossa, I am always trying to move them forward into Russia. So, if I left a few planes unused and later fly them in defence against a USSR counterattack, then I want them to return to base even farther forward if at all possible. As the USSR in the same situation I am always running away and I keep returning my planes farther eastwards - usually so they are at the maximum of their range from the front line. In all these cases, I could tell you exactly where I want to have my planes return to base even before the phasing player moves.

The exception that comes up is when I have 3 or 4 planes covering a front and a couple of them are lost during combat. In that case I probably want to have those that survive to occupy the best locations. What I am proposing would not give that option to the non-phasing player. I don't think it is a big thing though.

[c92nichj]

Hold one second, I am afraid that you are about to design something far to complicated.
As a player I don't want to go through each my planes and give them standing orders for any potential issue. Maybe if I can select several planes and give them the same type of order.

1 Fly combat air patrol (CAP) to hex . - Would be solved by a standing order.
3 Fly defending air units to hex (or sea box) - Here you can mark all hexes/sea areas that you would want to defend adn under what circumstances wou would like to defend them, If my opponent have +25A combat odds before airphase, I would not want to waste my precious bomber, on a case that is allready lost, I don'twant to fly unless the bomber will make a difference.
5 Intercept attacking air units - Solve with the AI's help, you should be able to set some general command like; -intercept when I can get odds at X level, don't intercept if that means all my fighters will be used.

6 Air to air combat
6.2 Place defender’s fighters and bombers in sequence for air to air combat - AI could handle this
6.3 Roll dice for defender & choose which units take casualties / get cleared through - AI could handle this
6.5 Defender decides whether to continue air to air combat - Ai could handle this with input from player in form of a standing order, abort when odds are at X
7 Anti-air combat by defender on attacker’s planes AI to handle but, if Anti-Air units are to be used they need to be commited in the same way as intercepting fighters, ie only commit if it would help and hex is important.
11 Return defender’s planes to base - I see two options to solve this one, a) Delay the RTB until the non-phasing players impulse b) Select one of four alternative: Rebase forward, rebase backward, hold, position, rebase close to HQ. The AI would decide the exact hex. I don't want to go through each and every plane for every impulse and set potential RTB hexes.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
Hold one second, I am afraid that you are about to design something far to complicated.
As a player I don't want to go through each my planes and give them standing orders for any potential issue. Maybe if I can select several planes and give them the same type of order.

1 Fly combat air patrol (CAP) to hex . - Would be solved by a standing order.
3 Fly defending air units to hex (or sea box) - Here you can mark all hexes/sea areas that you would want to defend adn under what circumstances wou would like to defend them, If my opponent have +25A combat odds before airphase, I would not want to waste my precious bomber, on a case that is allready lost, I don'twant to fly unless the bomber will make a difference.
5 Intercept attacking air units - Solve with the AI's help, you should be able to set some general command like; -intercept when I can get odds at X level, don't intercept if that means all my fighters will be used.

6 Air to air combat
6.2 Place defender’s fighters and bombers in sequence for air to air combat - AI could handle this
6.3 Roll dice for defender & choose which units take casualties / get cleared through - AI could handle this
6.5 Defender decides whether to continue air to air combat - Ai could handle this with input from player in form of a standing order, abort when odds are at X
7 Anti-air combat by defender on attacker’s planes AI to handle but, if Anti-Air units are to be used they need to be commited in the same way as intercepting fighters, ie only commit if it would help and hex is important.
11 Return defender’s planes to base - I see two options to solve this one, a) Delay the RTB until the non-phasing players impulse b) Select one of four alternative: Rebase forward, rebase backward, hold, position, rebase close to HQ. The AI would decide the exact hex. I don't want to go through each and every plane for every impulse and set potential RTB hexes.

We have time to design this right. I am in no particular hurry since it will be a couple of months before I can get to writing the code for PBEM. The only thing I would like to get done on PBEM in the next month is to have a firm design for the PBEM structure since I will need that to design the game interface.

The particulars of standing orders we can work out in, say, the next 2 months. Even then, they will certainly need to be polished through play testing. The reason I started this thread is so you, and others, can get involved and make sure I don't screw up the design.

The way I see standing orders working is that they will remain in effect from impulse to impulse and turn to turn unless the player modifies them. If the game interface is done right, you should be able to review them quickly and make any changes quickly. When you first start a game, you might have to issue a lot of standing orders (e.g., as the USSR in Barbarossa). After the game gets underway you will probably just be tweaking them here and there.

But I also like your other suggestions about the AI handling a lot of the decisions. Perhaps we could let the players give standing orders or let the AI make the decisions or some combination of the two.

[Greyshaft]

Love to add thoughts but too busy taking care of new baby... I'll try this weekend

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

Love to add thoughts but too busy taking care of new baby... I'll try this weekend

WE would love to read your opinions. There is no hurry. We'll be kicking these topics around for well over the next month.

[Mziln]

Just so everyones on the same page (from RaW 7)...

To strategically bombard:

1. Your opponent flies combat air patrol to potential target hexes;
2. You fly all your selected attacking bombers and escorting fighters to the target hexes;
3. Your opponent flies intercepting fighters to the target hexes;
4. You fly intercepting fighters to the target hexes;
5. Fight any 14.3 Air-to-air combat; (bounce combat is part of air-to-air combat)
6. If your using 22.4.2 Artillery Option 3 (AsA), Surviving bombers suffer anti-aircraft fire from AA units;
7. Surviving bombers attack the target hex;
8. Return all remaining aircraft to base and turn them face down.

To carpet bomb:

1. Your opponent flies combat air patrol to potential target hexes;
2. You fly all your selected attacking bombers and escorting fighters to the target hexes;
3. Your opponent flies intercepting fighters to the target hexes;
4. You fly intercepting fighters to the target hexes;
5. Fight any 14.3 Air-to-air combat; (bounce combat is part of air-to-air combat)
6. If your using 22.4.2 Artillery Option 3 (AsA) surviving bombers suffer anti-aircraft fire from AA units;
7. Surviving bombers carpet bomb the target hex;
8. Return all remaining aircraft to base and turn them face down.

I always thought you should be able to prioritize or script PBEM.

I'll be able to coment more intelicently once I finish the air mission rules. Untill then...

Stand Down - NO intercepts attempted at all.

Stand By - Intercept bombers only when you can get a CAP unit ratio of an attackers FTR units.
(I.E. 4-1, 5-1, 1-5, and etc.)

Would it be possable for option 2 to be toggled in a previous turn (or CAP phase) globally and locally (I.E. globally - all units; Locally - individual units)?

Problems:

Rebasing after intercepting...

A fighter flying interception uses half its printed range.

An intercepting fighter can use its full range to return to base after the mission. The fighter could land someplace other than its original base.

Other things to consider:

If you are using “16. Offensive chits Option 61” if you play an Offensive chit at the start of an air action, specify 1 of your face-up HQs as controller;