Question - Cav vs. Inf - This seems wrong

[marirosa]

I think the most important tweak must be with the IA.

In my last game, 98k russian forces where encircled next to Vienna by 200k frenchs. The result was 25k frenchs casualities and 3k russian casualities, 4 art, 2 cav and 4 generals captured; Napoleon i think was not there that day but can't be sure. Unfortunatelly 3 art disbanded due to low streng. Moreover, the battle lasted 6 turns (in turn 3 french did song the retreat).

I win by following the manual (use inf to fix enemy, disrupt then with art and then destroy/capture with fresh cav). It did it not too very well (25k casualities where a very poor result in fact), but the ia did it all plain wrong: fired with its inf from afar, charged with its cav until it got disorganized and i countercharged thenm with my inf, and the art... the art i don't remember it did anything the 3 turns of the battle, they got routed in turn 4 and i just keep pursuing them.

So in sort, i think the very first problem to address in this issue is the IA don't use the units as the game manual tell us the players they must be used.

[Malagant]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I played a game this afternoon to look at the cavalry vs infantry values. I had ten cavalry charges vs formed infantry in which the infantry did not square. In only two of the charges did the cavalry take more damage than the infantry. I was careful not to charge with fatigued cavalry and not to charge infantry in rough terrain... but other parameters varied: I tried head-on charges, charges against guard infantry, charges with irregular cavalry, etc.


Eric

Interesting, because I had exact opposite results last night. First battle of a 1792 campaign as the French, infantry in column in a farm hex (which is supposed to be bad, right?) with not so good morale (4'ish). The AI Austrian army had three cavalry divisions, that all charged. First cavalry took over 2k losses, infantry took a hundred. Neither disordered. Second cavalry took over 1k losses, infantry took over 1k losses, both disordered. Third cavalry did it right, displaced the infantry which took over 2k losses, cavalry took about a hundred.

Is there a way to generate a save log of the text during a detailed battle? (eg "French 3rd Infantry takes 1300 casualties. French 3rd Infantry is Shaken.") If it were in a text log file of some kind we could share our stories.

Interestingly, the AI then took his non-disrupted cavalry and charged militia in a town hex and took over 1k losses and was disrupted.

[carburo]

I think cavalry is modeled correctly in the game with only one exception: their rally chances. Horses aren’t tanks. A charge, even a flank o rear one, should be successfull only against a shaken and low morale unit, and very successfull against a disordered one. Ordered infantry should be almost always able to stand it’s ground and beat a cavalry charge back. I think that’s why you never read “the battle started with a massive cavalry charge against the enemy center” but “… with a bombardment … and the advance of attack columns”. An infantry unit needs to be softened before a charge; perhaps militia being an exception. Only heavy cav should have a chance of beating an ordered inf division if atacking from the flanks or behind.
I don’t like the idea of making rear charges devastating against ordered units because I can picture commando cavalry divisions inflitrating the enemy line and charging. Artillery should be an exception though; cavalry should wipe it every time if charging from the rear.
However, I think cavalry should have an easier time reforming after a successfull charge against shaken or disordered units. Not that they should be able to charge every turn, but I usually get one charge per battle from my cavalry, even if I only use it for pursuing broken units or delivering the coup de grace to shaken ones. I have been thinking about sending those horses to a gym, they are probably overweighed. Making it easier to reform after a successfull charge would make cavalry more effective at it’s historical role: delivering the last blow and pursuing the routed enemy. As it is now, with a limited chance to succeed in a rear or flank charge, it can fulfill it’s other role of preventing wrapping maneuvers.

[ericbabe]

Hi Carburo,

The way I tried to model this is to give cavalry only a chance of becoming disordered when they charge a disordered unit -- I think it's something like 50% right now. As the system is now, a cavalry charging a disordered infantry can get lucky and charge over and over. It was easier to do it this way then to have separate "cavalry disordered" states that remembered how the cavalry became disordered.


Eric

[donkuchi19]

I try to be careful with my cavalry. I hold my cavalry in reserve until I see broken units or supply caissons. Then I charge. This is the designed use of cavalry in my opinion. Napoleon would use infantry and artillery to open a hole in the enemy's lines, and then send cavalry in to exploit the breach and cause havoc. It was not intended to be a shock troop to blow open the lines themselves.

[Malagant]

I don't disagree, donkuchi.

But if infantry were charged by cavalry, and failed to form square, what result would you expect?

[malcolm_mccallum]

ORIGINAL: Malagant

I don't disagree, donkuchi.

But if infantry were charged by cavalry, and failed to form square, what result would you expect?

I think that's too broad a question. First of all, why is the infantry not forming square? Under normal circumstances when cavalry is threatening, you are able to form square with certainty. Weather, line of sight, or already being disordered might be the only things preventing you from having the time to do so.

Perhaps instead the commanders assessed the situation and found it more effective to remain out of square and use the terrain to deter the cavalry.

Under normal circumstances, cavalry was no threat to infantry but the presence of cavalry could limit the mobility and offensive capability of infantry. Cavalry forced Infantry to stay alert to their threat.

In fact, its a pretty good maxim to say that cavalry is more useful as a threat than as a force.

[Malagant]

With all due respect, I'm tired of people talking down to me and others on this message board as though others are completely uneducated about the period's warfare, and 'you' are the font of all Napoleonic knowledge.

You're not telling me anything I don't know.

Tuck away your egos and instead of trying to prove that you know more than the rest of us, just be constructive and answer the question within the context of the game, please.

First of all, why is the infantry not forming square?

I have no idea. The AI cavalry charges, my infantry doesn't form square. This usually happens on the first turn of a tactical battle before I've had opportunity to move anything.

Perhaps instead the commanders assessed the situation and found it more effective to remain out of square and use the terrain to deter the cavalry.

Given the results I'm used to seeing, I think it's more effective to remain out of square all the time!

Under normal circumstances, cavalry was no threat to infantry but the presence of cavalry could limit the mobility and offensive capability of infantry. Cavalry forced Infantry to stay alert to their threat.

In fact, its a pretty good maxim to say that cavalry is more useful as a threat than as a force.

And this is modeled in the game by a cavalry charge usually not happening because the infantry maintain good order and form square. I understand this. I love the way this is modeled in this game.

However I disagree with your statement "cavalry was no threat to infantry "

If this were the case, why would infantry even bother to try to form square?

From what I've seen in the game, infantry that doesn't form square wrecks the cavalry that charges. If the infantry does form square, they sit there and stare at each other. As the infantry, I'd much rather wreck the cavalry that stare at them.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Malagant
From what I've seen in the game, infantry that doesn't form square wrecks the cavalry that charges. If the infantry does form square, they sit there and stare at each other. As the infantry, I'd much rather wreck the cavalry that stare at them.

The key problem is that your results are not being duplicated. Sure this occasionally happens but it doesn't seem to be the rule in our testing. Eric is looking into making some adjustments but this type of thing needs much more specific results to be provided on how you are testing when we can't duplicate the frequency of this type of result with our tests.

Regards,

- Erik

[carburo]

Hi Eric,
Thanks for your answer. I know sometimes you get lucky and the cav stays in formation. My point is that if it gets disordered, it’s almost surely out for the rest of the battle. I rarely see my cav reform, even after sleeping comfortably all the night as far from the action as possible. I don’t want it to reform under fire, or charge every second turn, but for one charge a day they are way overpaid.
In fact I wouldn’t mind seeing cav units disordered after every charge, or even suffer significantly more casualties after an unsuccessful charge, as long as they had a realistic chance of reforming under the right conditions: good morale, some rest, no formed enemy unit nearby… What I don’t get is the idea behind the cav reverting to shaken turn after turn after failing each attemp to reform. I would expect the probability of reforming to slightly increase after every turn, but as far as I know most of the time it stays frozen at 10% -which I strongly suspect is not exactly a 1/10 chance, or I have had an incredible bad luck. As it is now, a cav getting a second shot is a rare and nice surprise, but something I can’t count on, even in a long battle. In fact I keep cav in my armies just for the historical flavor. Infantry is by far more efficient, even at charging, because usually you can reform it behind you main line and use it again.
I of course understand that every “small change” we suggets is in fact a lot of hard work for you, and sometimes it is simply not possible to implement. My suggestion is that instead of changing the combat parameters, which I find OK, you can make cav reusable by allowing it to reform faster under the right circumstances. Cav should be mainly for finishing off softened units and chasing down routers, but it should be good at that. And in almost no case should And in almost no circumstances should cav be good at charging well formed infantry, this would kill balance and lead to all cavalry armies.
Perhaps there could be a bigger difference between heavy and light cav, which I frankly don’t see now. The former better at charging shaken units but harder to reform –they tire faster and recover slower- and the later awful against anything that fights back, but easy to reform and good at harassing disordered units.

[carburo]

by heavies being harder to reform I don't mean harder than how it is now, which would be impossible to reform, but harder that light cav.
Sorry for the repeated words in the other post.

[donkuchi19]

ORIGINAL: Malagant

I don't disagree, donkuchi.

But if infantry were charged by cavalry, and failed to form square, what result would you expect?

It depends on what facing the cavalry was attacking. If it was a flank or rear attack, I would expect the inf. to take heavy casualties. If it is front on, the charge would fail.

I wargame with Miniatures using the Grant rules and he has an example to prove the point. During the Battle of Salamanca, Portuguese Dragoons charged a French Infantry Regiment. The French were suprised and unable to form squares. They formed a two company front and repelled the initial charge until the Dragoons were able to go around the flank and hit the rear as well. The purpose of a square is to offer the cavalry no flank or rear to charge upon. A straight hit to the front would be easily repelled using a line of bayonets and musket fire. As a matter of fact, the original Grant rules do not allow cavalry to charge unbroken infantry from the front. You must hit a flank or rear.

[Malagant]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Malagant
From what I've seen in the game, infantry that doesn't form square wrecks the cavalry that charges. If the infantry does form square, they sit there and stare at each other. As the infantry, I'd much rather wreck the cavalry that stare at them.

The key problem is that your results are not being duplicated. Sure this occasionally happens but it doesn't seem to be the rule in our testing. Eric is looking into making some adjustments but this type of thing needs much more specific results to be provided on how you are testing when we can't duplicate the frequency of this type of result with our tests.

Regards,

- Erik

I've seen many other posts by several other people having seen the same results with the same consistency.

I also again want to clarify that it's the AI cavalry charging headlong in to my infantry. Something I hadn't considered before is perhaps the AI had used Forced March and his cavalry is already Fatigued!

It depends on what facing the cavalry was attacking. If it was a flank or rear attack, I would expect the inf. to take heavy casualties. If it is front on, the charge would fail.

Then we are in complete agreement. This is not the results I see in the game, however. I see with great repeatablitiy the AI cavalry charge my infantry columns from front, sides, or rear...and when the infantry fail to form column, the cavalry takes huge damage (several thousand) and the infantry take light losses.

[Mr. Z]

Then we are in complete agreement. This is not the results I see in the game, however. I see with great repeatablitiy the AI cavalry charge my infantry columns from front, sides, or rear...and when the infantry fail to form column, the cavalry takes huge damage (several thousand) and the infantry take light losses.

Maybe we could try this: could you maybe 1) take a screenshot after the casualties, to display the numbers (while they're rising from the unit hexes), and then maybe 2) right-click on the enemy cavalry unit to show his post-attack status (which will at least give us some idea of what it might have been beforehand). Also possibly a third screen-shot of the right-click stats of the defending infantry unit. More than one example might also be nice.

Alternatively, maybe try playing 1792 as the Austrians instead, and charge infantry columns repeatedly?

Remember you can also play two different powers as humans, and set up a battle to test things.

[ahauschild]

Hard to anticipate when a unit will not form square.

But this happens SO often, and is so repeatable, should not even be a concern to find it.
I am to the point where the game is becomming to easy in tactical, since the computer does so many things wrong.
I need ways to make the computer fight smarter, better and the inf not forming square and slaughtering the cav problem is one of the things that the AI does again and again.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

Then we are in complete agreement. This is not the results I see in the game, however. I see with great repeatablitiy the AI cavalry charge my infantry columns from front, sides, or rear...and when the infantry fail to form column, the cavalry takes huge damage (several thousand) and the infantry take light losses.

Maybe we could try this: could you maybe 1) take a screenshot after the casualties, to display the numbers (while they're rising from the unit hexes), and then maybe 2) right-click on the enemy cavalry unit to show his post-attack status (which will at least give us some idea of what it might have been beforehand). Also possibly a third screen-shot of the right-click stats of the defending infantry unit. More than one example might also be nice.

Alternatively, maybe try playing 1792 as the Austrians instead, and charge infantry columns repeatedly?

Remember you can also play two different powers as humans, and set up a battle to test things.

will do this the next time i play! [:)]

[Malagant]

Good suggestions, Mr. Z. I will try to get some screenshots for us!


I'd asked before...is there a way to save the combat results text in to a .txt log file?

[Naomi]

ORIGINAL: ahauschild

Hard to anticipate when a unit will not form square.

But this happens SO often, and is so repeatable, should not even be a concern to find it.
I am to the point where the game is becomming to easy in tactical, since the computer does so many things wrong.
I need ways to make the computer fight smarter, better and the inf not forming square and slaughtering the cav problem is one of the things that the AI does again and again.

Yeah, may AI go take some Clausewitz's courses.

[donkuchi19]

I just fought an entire war as Russia against Turkey. Charges from rear and flank worked very well while head on charges didn't. Charges against disordered units were devestating. I cannot duplicate your problems.

Just to check, are you always using the same country for your battles. Maybe there is a glitch with one of the country's cavalry forces. It might just be the country you are using which might make it easier to find a problem.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: donkuchi

I just fought an entire war as Russia against Turkey. Charges from rear and flank worked very well while head on charges didn't. Charges against disordered units were devestating. I cannot duplicate your problems.

Just to check, are you always using the same country for your battles. Maybe there is a glitch with one of the country's cavalry forces. It might just be the country you are using which might make it easier to find a problem.

it would be the calvary the AI is using not us correct? i have fought against russia and sweden...