62 years ago today.......

[Gen.Hoepner]

I do not know how things went in other countries for those volaunteers who keep serving in the axis forces will the end of war.
I see you come from Denmark Terminus, did you have anything like that for the volounteers of Denmark in the Nordland Division? ...well at least against those who survived the battle of Berlin. Did you( i mean the State of Denmark ) keeps calling them Evil?

[Speedysteve]

Interesting question. Terminus?

How about Spain come to think of it? I know they weren't part of the Axis but anyone know if after Franco there was a lot of backlash?

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Thanks for that commentary. I found it interesting also. I've often read about attitudes and the lay of the land in postwar Germany and Japan but admitedly, I'd never thought about the effects in post-war Italy until now. I guess Italy tends to fall under the radar because of the three Axis powers, Italy was the only one to surrender before "total defeat" and was also the country where the general population had the least enthusiasm for the war.

Thought provoking.

Yes, probably we deserve this oblivion.

You know what is strange? That here we're all ww2 semi-historicians.....and very few of us ( especially those who come from the winning countries ) do not know what happened in Italy in those terrible 2 years. Those 2 years changed completely the attitude of our people...
This oblivion is the main reason why nobody ( or almost ) understands when i talk in a certain way about Honour,Glory and all these stuff when thinking about RSI.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Interesting question. Terminus?

How about Spain come to think of it? I know they weren't part of the Axis but anyone know if after Franco there was a lot of backlash?

They had a terrible civil war. And altough a certain degree of "social peace" has been gained since 1979, with Zapatero things seem to be burning up again...but i only heard rumors[;)]

[Terminus]

After the war, a lot of Danes who had served in Freikorps Danmark and the Nordland were put in prison. This was on shaky legal ground, because the original call for volunteers to fight in Russia had been actively endorsed by the Danish government.

Nowadays, the Ostfront veterans are not considered evil, per se. They served on the wrong side, true, but most people realise that they have to take a less black and white view at the issue, because of the government endorsement.

There's a much harder opinion of Danes who collaborated with the German occupation forces in Denmark. Right now, there's a case running against a Danish SS man called Søren Kam, who's accused of a murder he commited in Denmark in 1943. Kam lives in northern Germany as a German citizen, and the German Constitutional Court has just decided that he can't be extradited to Denmark by way of an EU arrest order because said order would violate his rights as a German citizen.

As for Spain, after Franco died, there was one attempt at a military coup, which failed miserably. There was ZERO public support for return to dictatorship.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner


Yes, probably we deserve this oblivion.

quite the opposite. its important for anyone interested in history to see and explore all sides of a conflict and the aftermath of such. Particularily the latter so that one can put a human face on the situation. Its important to remember that all the countries, Axis and Allied both, were countries filled with human beings, each with their own opinions, goals, dreams and experiences. Yes, the Nazis were an evil organziation, yes Facism was a wrong road. But its not enough to simply label and condemn. Its important to understand Understand the underlying drivers that motivated or shepered people to be influenced by such things.

By understanding you learn the root causes of how these events came to be and thus can prevent future occurances. Lest history be repeated.

Gee....sermon over.... [;)] its also just good to read the human side.....from reading the history of WWII, a large component of how the Nazi regime was able to instill a atmosphere of hate was to do the opposite....make the "enemy" a faceless mercurial enemy, de-humanize them. De-humanizing makes hate easier.

Great thing about the Internet. I wasn't even aware of this situation in post-war Italy. I am now. I hate blind spots.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

After the war, a lot of Danes who had served in Freikorps Danmark and the Nordland were put in prison. This was on shaky legal ground, because the original call for volunteers to fight in Russia had been actively endorsed by the Danish government.

Nowadays, the Ostfront veterans are not considered evil, per se. They served on the wrong side, true, but most people realise that they have to take a less black and white view at the issue, because of the government endorsement.

Well, this is a behavior that i expect from a civilized country. Recognize the relativity of historical points of view and judge the individual choices in the particular contest they were taken.
All the european volounteers ( more than 500,000 ) that served in the waffen ss in the eastern front, did not give a dime about hitler or mussolini or whatever. They fought till the end for an Idea, a dream of glory and a dream of a different europe.
If we do not understand why 1,000 20 years old french defended Berlin even after Hitler's death, why thousands of Scandinavian volounteers sacrified their lifes defending the reich from Leningrad to Berlin, why an entire spanish division could fight for germany...and why 1.000.000 italians decided to die fighting for their country instead of running away and burn their national flag, ..if we do not try to understand the psycology that lies beneath these phenomena, we will never really understand the war in europe and ABOVE ALL, why Europe is now as it is.

IMHO

[Terminus]

It is of course easier to take a more nuanced view of history in Denmark because our country didn't almost disintegrate in civil war.

[Toast]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

It's tough for me to explain in english my thoughts.....
I did not wanted to say what you've read through my words. It's not a matter of who was the "DEVIL" and who the HOLY...it's something that concerns honour, loyalty and Chivarlyship ( sp??). You start a war with a side. You end the war, no matters what happens, with THAT side. During a football match you cannot just say: ok, my team is losing...i'd go playing with the winners....TOO EASY!

Actually this is exactly what resposible governments have always done and should do. WWII was so big and traumatic to the world that i think it has made us think this is how wars should be. But the vast histories of wars before and since show us something else: States do not fight to the death. States do not stand by alles when it is not in their self interest. A responsible governmet, representing the true interests of its citizens should sign a peace treaty if it is obvious it cannot win a war. To do otherwise is to prolong your own citizens pain and suffering for no reason. They should also leave alliances when that alliance no longer serves the interests of the country. To do otherwise is to betray your own citizens. History shows us that WWII was an aberration and that is not how wars normally progress. The biggest reason that it progressed as it did was because the inhumanity of the Nazi and the Inperial Japanese regimes precluded any compromise or treaty with those governments. And the people of those nations either would not or could not change those regimes. The Allies had to forceably remove them from power. It seems to me the Italian governemtn did the only honorable thing: get out of a losing war and drop an alliance that was sure to bring the country to ruin only to serve Nazi Germany's interests.

[rtrapasso]

You know what is strange? That here we're all ww2 semi-historicians.....and very few of us ( especially those who come from the winning countries ) do not know what happened in Italy in those terrible 2 years. Those 2 years changed completely the attitude of our people...
This oblivion is the main reason why nobody ( or almost ) understands when i talk in a certain way about Honour,Glory and all these stuff when thinking about RSI.

I agree it is strange. I have relatives in Italy, and while i am not really in touch with them, i have other relatives that are in touch. Also, i've read accounts of European post-WW2 history (not a lot, i'll admit) - also no mention that i can recall of this civil war. Lastly, even Italian literature seems to gloss this over. Just finished Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum which talks quite a bit about the conflict between pro-German/anti-German forces, and he did not seem to describe it with that much bitterness, and specifically mentions that when the war was over, everything went back to "normal".

This seems EXTREMELY STRANGE in light of what you have just revealed. Maybe he/his family wasn't that affected, but still seems peculiar...

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Toast

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

It's tough for me to explain in english my thoughts.....
I did not wanted to say what you've read through my words. It's not a matter of who was the "DEVIL" and who the HOLY...it's something that concerns honour, loyalty and Chivarlyship ( sp??). You start a war with a side. You end the war, no matters what happens, with THAT side. During a football match you cannot just say: ok, my team is losing...i'd go playing with the winners....TOO EASY!

Actually this is exactly what resposible governments have always done and should do. WWII was so big and traumatic to the world that i think it has made us think this is how wars should be. But the vast histories of wars before and since show us something else: States do not fight to the death. States do not stand by alles when it is not in their self interest. A responsible governmet, representing the true interests of its citizens should sign a peace treaty if it is obvious it cannot win a war. To do otherwise is to prolong your own citizens pain and suffering for no reason. They should also leave alliances when that alliance no longer serves the interests of the country. To do otherwise is to betray your own citizens. History shows us that WWII was an aberration and that is not how wars normally progress. The biggest reason that it progressed as it did was because the inhumanity of the Nazi and the Inperial Japanese regimes precluded any compromise or treaty with those governments. And the people of those nations either would not or could not change those regimes. The Allies had to forceably remove them from power. It seems to me the Italian governemtn did the only honorable thing: get out of a losing war and drop an alliance that was sure to bring the country to ruin only to serve Nazi Germany's interests.

Obviously i could not agree with your view.
Wars aren't just a matter of interests. War is that particular state of human beings where the nature of men is created. War is part of our own being. Men has always fight each other. It is war that creates the Nations, that writes history. And the way fight a war, wether if you win or lose, changes the course of the generations. If you fight with honour, you'll never be a loser, even if you lose. What if the british had surrended after Dunkerque? What if Greece had signed a peace treaty with Persia after Termophilies( Hot gates)? What if the german tribes had agreed to let rome's legions advance in their woods? History would have been different and probably the will of those nations would have been completely changed. We would not have a D-Day, We wouldn't have a Salamis battle, we wouldn't have a Teutobourg roman's defeat....
Japan lost the war like we did, but the spirit , the pride of the japanese Empire hasn't been lost completely. They are proud of being japanese and they love their national flag......while, for us is quite the opposite. That dramatic 8th semptember was a door shut upon our honour, on our national will.
The prove of what i'm saying is the behaviour the different pubblic opinions have of their soldiers. The Americans, The British, the Frenchs...everybody seems to be pround of their guys that take a gun and go dieing defending their country and its interests. We, the Italians, have a very bad attitude with our soldiers. we do not care about National Anthem; we do no care about the national flag...our idea of state has died that day, and probably won't come back

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

[
I agree it is strange. I have relatives in Italy, and while i am not really in touch with them, i have other relatives that are in touch. Also, i've read accounts of European post-WW2 history (not a lot, i'll admit) - also no mention that i can recall of this civil war. Lastly, even Italian literature seems to gloss this over. Just finished Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum which talks quite a bit about the conflict between pro-German/anti-German forces, and he did not seem to describe it with that much bitterness, and specifically mentions that when the war was over, everything went back to "normal".

This seems EXTREMELY STRANGE in light of what you have just revealed. Maybe he/his family wasn't that affected, but still seems peculiar...

Umberto Eco is , being an post-war intellectual, one of those men who made their fortunes not only because of his artistic capabilities, but also because of his political orientation. In Italy, for 60 years, only those who declared themself anti-fascist could hope to become someone, both in politics, litterature, and arts in general. The anti-fascist doctrine is not to mention what happened when the allies won the war. In the High school the books DO NOT talk about the genocide of fascist families in late 40s. Not a single word about the "foibes" ( the dreaded holes in the ground where thousands of italians were thrown by the yugoslavian gov. ), not a single word about the american bombs on our cities....believe me: nothing. You can only read how Mussolini was Evil, how the fascism was dictatorship, how good was for us to have lost the war the 8th sept. and how we won the 25th April 45[:o]....

In france it's the same with the "Question VANDEEN". If you try to study or just to get informed of something that the actual regime considers "political uncorretc" you get banned as fascist and damned to the pubblical oblivion, when not to prison.
For my last degree at university, i've made an essey about the Vandèe, trying to show how the french democracy was built upon the blood of 300,000 innocent lives.....during the exam one of the commissioner called me fascist[:(]...and more than 200 years are past by....so probably the more recent scars of the Italian civil war won't be forgotten so easily

[Terminus]

A general question, Hoepner. In my admittedly less than complete understanding of the Italian civil war, I thought most of the partisan actions took place in the north, since that's where the RSI was. Is that incorrect?

[Toast]

Civil Wars are always very destrutive and horrible and the wounds from that struggle always take a long, long time to heal. The wounds from the ACW really only healed here in the last thirty years and really because of the extreme mobility of the population. As more and more people moved to the South from the North and Mid-west, the distinct character of the South disappeared and the number of people who considered themselves "Southerns" gradually dwindled. But there are still large pockets of rural areas where there is still bitterness and ill-feeling toward 'Yankees". But even these areas are getting swallowed up by ever expanding suburbia and rows of houses all looking the same with two SUV's in every driveway.

One could also argue that the damage to the German body politic after the First World War was a direct result of the bitter civil war of 1918-1919 and the ability of the Nazi's to rise to power was a direct result of the poison and hatred left over in public life because of this. The reason it didn't have a longer term impact on Germany was the total destruction of the end of WWII and the splitting of the country into two superpower blocks introduced new elements of survival and politics that represented a complete break with the past.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

A general question, Hoepner. In my admittedly less than complete understanding of the Italian civil war, I thought most of the partisan actions took place in the north, since that's where the RSI was. Is that incorrect?

Yes you're right. The Partisan actions during ww2 started in late 43 in the northern part of Italy, the one still in the hands of Axis. Many historicians, nowdays, admit that these very well known actions were really rare untill late 44, when the "debacle" of the axis was absolutly clear. It's known that till 8 sept 43 there were no partisans in Italy ( well probably dissident, but nothing that can be called partisan activity). That's why it's funny to see all those politicians that say that they or their parents have always been partisans , since late 20s[:D].
The truth is that many joined partisans when it became clear where the wind was blowing[:-]

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
The truth is that many joined partisans when it became clear where the wind was blowing[:-]

Well, that's happened everywhere...

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

ORIGINAL: Terminus

A general question, Hoepner. In my admittedly less than complete understanding of the Italian civil war, I thought most of the partisan actions took place in the north, since that's where the RSI was. Is that incorrect?

Yes you're right. The Partisan actions during ww2 started in late 43 in the northern part of Italy, the one still in the hands of Axis. Many historicians, nowdays, admit that these very well known actions were really rare untill late 44, when the "debacle" of the axis was absolutly clear. It's known that till 8 sept 43 there were no partisans in Italy ( well probably dissident, but nothing that can be called partisan activity). That's why it's funny to see all those politicians that say that they or their parents have always been partisans , since late 20s[:D].
The truth is that many joined partisans when it became clear where the wind was blowing[:-]

If the civil war took place mainly in the North, that might explain lack of info from my relatives, since they were about as far south as you can go (Calabria.)

[Terminus]

Another aspect of the Danish occupation history has recently come to light, when it's appeared that at least some of the instances where Danish resistance fighters performed killings of informants and collaborators were in fact personal accounts being settled under the guise of resistance.

I must admit, having had an uncle who was a resistance fighter, I at first found this discussion distasteful in the extreme and not something that should be dug up. But on reflection, it's probably good to get these things out in the open, and not consign them to oblivion, to quote Hoepner.

[Nikademus]

hmmm....the Marshall plan included Italy didn't it?

[Toast]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner


Obviously i could not agree with your view.
Wars aren't just a matter of interests. War is that particular state of human beings where the nature of men is created. War is part of our own being. Men has always fight each other. It is war that creates the Nations, that writes history. And the way fight a war, wether if you win or lose, changes the course of the generations. If you fight with honour, you'll never be a loser, even if you lose. What if the british had surrended after Dunkerque? What if Greece had signed a peace treaty with Persia after Termophilies( Hot gates)? What if the german tribes had agreed to let rome's legions advance in their woods? History would have been different and probably the will of those nations would have been completely changed. We would not have a D-Day, We wouldn't have a Salamis battle, we wouldn't have a Teutobourg roman's defeat....
Japan lost the war like we did, but the spirit , the pride of the japanese Empire hasn't been lost completely. They are proud of being japanese and they love their national flag......while, for us is quite the opposite. That dramatic 8th semptember was a door shut upon our honour, on our national will.
The prove of what i'm saying is the behaviour the different pubblic opinions have of their soldiers. The Americans, The British, the Frenchs...everybody seems to be pround of their guys that take a gun and go dieing defending their country and its interests. We, the Italians, have a very bad attitude with our soldiers. we do not care about National Anthem; we do no care about the national flag...our idea of state has died that day, and probably won't come back

Since the days of Nation-States war has been an extension of policy by other means. It has nothing to do with honor and chivalry, just the self-interest of nation-states. And since the Industrial Revolution war has become a mass of butchery and destruction with no glory. To romanticize war, the reasons for it and its consequences has always been a grave mistake.

And I would argue that the biggest reason the Allies won and the Axis lost was because the Allies' political leaders pursued the war with my rational thought and less romanticism than Axis leaders and the war leades of the Allies pursued the gols of their political leaders with more of a scientific approach and less of one based on irratinal thoughts of "fighting spirit" and "racial superiority."

If the Italian governemt had not surrendered to the Allies in Sept., 1943, then I think their honor would have been more in question and the government would have definitely been guilty of not looking out for the best interests of its civilians.

If I read your posts correctly (and I have to admit to being as ignorant on this subject as most of the other people on this forum), the problems you bring up have more to do with the civil war and the actions in that conflict than the surrender in 1943. Like I posted before, the wounds of a civil war are deep and take a lot to heal. Mostly it takes time, a lot of time, to heal those types of wound in a nation.