assaulting tanks in 8.4 ?

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

Just a question what was changed to make the tanks spot the infantry so much better, so far it seems that a tank has to be in retreat mode or better to get assaulted. Or is it everything can spot better with in one hex? Still working/refining my tactics however

everyone may have to adjust the "search" preference to there own likes and dislikes.
quoting the patch fixes list that was posted

3) "Made it a bit easier to spot enemy units, especially at range one of zero."

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

Just a question what was changed to make the tanks spot the infantry so much better, so far it seems that a tank has to be in retreat mode or better to get assaulted. Or is it everything can spot better with in one hex? Still working/refining my tactics however

Not sure to be honest. My own tactics here havn't really changed. I always try to fully suppress a tank before slipping in an INF unit to assault. Changes or no changes, my results are still pretty much the same. The change from what i've heard will only make said tactics that much more manditory.

[soldier]

I tried to adjust searching right down for the tank side to about 60 when i tested and i got an even more unusual result. infantry running at full speed at tanks in the remained unspotted but troops in the forest creep up one hex and whammo. Tank spins around on one hex and belts comers from all sides... in a forest !
Heres the issue. If you dont have artillery a tank in the forest simply cant be suppressed because it cannot be approached but armour in the open can be (by mgs etc) and then assaulted.
The result = Tanks in the forest are now more formidable than tanks in open terrain. Does this not break every rule of tank warfare as i previously stated people
or am i just crazy ? [&:]

[soldier]

infantry running at full speed at tanks in the open remained unspotted to 2 hexes but troops in the forest creep up one hex and whammo
i meant to say

[Alby]

alot could depend on the experience level of the assualter and the tank they are assualting...dont forget..[:)]

[Svennemir]

[whoops, wrong thread somehow]

[VikingNo2]

I am suppressing the tanks, what was trying to state was that unless its in a retreat mode then my troops get hit no matter what the terrain. This is mainly against the Russian's mind you in 1943.

[Nikademus]

odd. Not happening to me.

[VikingNo2]

then it must be a communist plot[8|]

[Major_Johnson]

If I'm ever in a situation where I have to use infantry to assault tanks, "normally" I'm losing, so I do my best to position the infantry (or whatever) so that the tank will run into it, thus triggering the assault mechanism. Also, try to attack with multiple units, and if possible from different directions. It is possible to divert the attention of the tank else where so that your infantry can get to within that 1 hex range. But a lot of "what if's" can be applied here.

[Nikademus]

I do have a very high inspirational leadership rating.

[:D]

[VikingNo2]

Even if I attack from different directions they all get hit. Maybe its just a bad game for me or something. Enemy tank is fired on with one of my tanks two misses two plunks, then I hit the tank with MG fire, again 50/50 hits and misses then I attack the tank from three direction with infantry squads , it hits all three as soon as they move beside the tank. Inflicting casualties causing two squads the run. The tank was button before this all began, the enemy tank had a clear line of sight to my tank and MG but did not return fire[&:]

[steelpanther]

I havent had a whole lot of problems. You also have to remember that in actuallity if your units are 2 hexes away before moving next to the tank they are 100 meters away. Thats a long way for infantry to sneak up on anything. I like to let the tanks come to me and them assault them. In combat especially in the city troops did not run up to the tanks but let the tanks come to them <20 yards and then spring the assault. It would look kinda funny for a soviet infantry troop to run 100 meters with a lit molotov. LOL

[Alby]

I hate to admit it...but I think the spotting MAY have been tweaked a little too high.
I ran a test and surrounded a soviet tank on all 4 sides with the infrantry all one hex away(meaning an open hex between the INF and the Tank).
this was in forest.
each time I moved towards the tank, it wheeled and fired...even when I appraoched from behind...
I tried the same thing with an SU57..I first fired an MG34 all shots available at it to try and supress it..then moved infrantry in...same thing, it wheeled and fired at them all...
I will do more testing.
If this happens with vehicles with no turret, then I would say it needs a tweak..
more info later....[:)]

I wish Mr. Wood would chime in here.

[Alby]

well i just ran a number of tests
with searching(spotting) set to 60.... in a forest setting

same thing everytime...I placed 4 SS infrantry squads on all 4 sides of first a T34(not a guard unit, but regular experience unit), same results...it spins and fires each time you move towards it.
then tried it with a non turreted SU 76j


same thing it spun around and fired each time I moved towards it...
even with no suppression, this is a bit much I feel.
Hate to say it...the spotting routine is tweaked too high in my opinion..[:(]
not complaining...this is just my observation, everything else in 8.4 looks great.

I am currently running a poll at the SPWAW Depot, for one week, to get some other opinions.
http://spwaw.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t ... highlight=
[:)]


THIS IS ALL ASSUMING THE WAY TANKS AND SUCH REACT, IS IN THE SPOTTING ROUTINE

[chief]

Steelpanther: You spoke of waiting for tanks to come to you in city fighting, That's a good move except NOW (8.4) they have an uncanny ability to spot your UNMOVING, UNFIRING, troops from 2 hexes away even when your in a building....as a said on another post...tank sees troops, tank shoots, troops go bye-bye birdie. Me thinks they have (per Alby) tweaked it much too high.

[Alby]

Some more testing.....
Again this is all in a forest, spotting set at 60

This time I used 2 man scout teams which should be much harder to spot..

of the 4 units that were used to surround the vehicle, 3 were fired at by the SU76j everytime they moved towards the tank.

so using smaller size units reduces it SLIGHTLY
3 out of 4 though still..[:(]

BTW the experience level of the SU was 60, the T34 was 57

the scouts ranged from 63 to 76, same for the SS units

I also tried with snipers...the tank did not fire. [X(]

[KG Erwin]

One thing I've noticed is that during the AI turn, sometimes my troops will close assault and destroy an enemy AFV. However, during MY turn, invariably a close assault order I issue is ignored. The only thing I can do is use direct fire with either a hand grenade or a ATR/bazooka IF my unit has one.

In any case, it appears that close assaulting an unsuppressed AFV is tantamount to suicide.

We gotta take the good with the bad--how many times in past versions did we see crewmen & snipers destroying tanks by close assault? This was plainly unacceptable. In correcting this problem, there were side-effects that are now being noticed. I don't think we can have it both ways.

This was the intended effect--now, tank-killing is for units dedicated to that purpose, and equipped with the weapons to accomplish the job, NOT for some crazed crewman coming at your vehicle with a pistol in hand or waving a samurai sword.

Does it make sense now?

[Alby]

Glenn....Just to clarify....the infrantry is not even getting a chance to assualt the tank the way it is now....not that the assualts are failing.
they get fired upon before they can do anything...
THIS IS BASED ON HUMAN PLAYER ASSUALTING AI
test test test....[:)]
I think it just got tweaked a little too high...should be an easy fix.
so far the poll is showing 70% say its too high, 30% say no

but only 10 votes so far[:D]

[KG Erwin]

That's fine, Alby. I hope that Michael Wood will chime in soon with his response--he's been very active in the forums lately (which is appreciated, but uncharacteristic of him).

For right now, the best bet is to lower the "searching" percentage in the Preferences--Flashfyre suggested 40%.

For me, personally, it isn't that big of an issue-- in the Pacific, one rarely encounters Japanese tanks, and they are usually rendered into junk very quickly by bazookas or US tanks. Conversely, I know better than to send a tank into no-man's land without supporting infantry being stacked with them.

Of course, it becomes a much larger issue when fighting in the other theaters of war.

Once Michael becomes aware of these issues, I would hope he'd do a few tweaks and issue a corrected mech.exe.

Michael, are you listening?