Suggested Houserules for Multiplayer games (Allies)

andrewmv · Post by **andrewmv** » Mon Nov 27, 2000 2:55 pm

I've been discussing the problems of modelling Pacific War ommand problems with my brother (he did his thesis on the subject and is an avid Pacwar player too). Here's the house rules we thrashed out. Comments are welcomed

Allies: 4 Players (British, Navy, Army and JCS)

The JCS has direct control over North Pacific, West Coast and Nationalist China Commands. However all naval units attached to North Pacific come under the Navy players control. This represents the confused command structure in the NorPac that placed the 11th Airforce and the land units under Alaska Defence Command (under JCS), whilst the naval forces were under Pacific Area Command (Under Nimitz). JCS also has direct control over all B29 units (20th & 21st airforce).

The Navy player controls CenPac and SoPac commands, plus all NZ units fall under navy control. Also recommend renaming the 8th NZ Bde as the Fijian Bde. This avoids the problem of the massive over representation of NZ forces in the game.

Army player controls SW Pacific and ANZAC. Also all Australian units (except those in Malaya) fall under Army control.

British player controls SEAC, Malaya AG, ABDA and North CAC. All British, Indian and Dutch units fall under British control.

Allocation of forces
Allocation of all British, Indian, Australian and NZ reinforcements falls under the control of the relevant player. Dutch Naval units fall under British control but Dutch airunits fall under Army control. All US reinforcements are allocated by JCS, with the exception that the navy player can veto any carrier deployment and the army player can veto any non B29 heavy bomber deployment.

US units in transit through a theater may be "stolen" by that theater command (ie the relevant player may take control over them) and it requires a direct order from the JCS to get them moving again (apparently the 13th Airforce commander regularly took control of airunits destined for SW Pacific and diverted them to CincAirSol and McArthur had enough political clout to ignore redeployment orders). To represent this, any units ot embarked on ships must be moved by the player who's theatre they are in. Also shipboard units in transit may be redirected by the player who's theatre they are currently in.

US commanders (ie army, navy and JCS) may never take control over any British units without the British commander's approval (Churchill beats King).

folgore · Post by **folgore** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 4:09 am

yes i agree the most part of it , the only problem is that i would like to see the figure of the Overall commander so 5 players will be too many ( the overall commander is useful in many ways like keep players not that free in decision , substituting lazy players , discuss things with the other commander about the general issues etc etc )

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 10:24 am

I have a question.

What about MacArthur's navy? He was given an entire fleet under his command (albiet they were primarily Cruisers and Destroyers). This should be something separate from the USN.

Regarding ABDA and the Asiatic Fleet. I think that ABDA should get to command the ships formerly from the US Asiatic fleet, as, historically they were under ABDA control. The US should reserve the right to pull them out, but, should incurr some sort of political penalty, or something, if they pull them out too early. It is bad propaganda if you abandon one's allies too early.

andrewmv · Post by **andrewmv** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 11:16 am

>>What about MacArthur's navy? He was given an entire fleet under his command (albiet they were primarily Cruisers and Destroyers). This should be something separate from the USN.<<

Definitly. The 7th Fleet was under MacArthur's command. But navy begrudged him everything he got. He had enough clout to get destroyers, cruisers and even battleships. Where he had problems was getting carriers. Basically the navy refused point blank to put its carriers under his command. They would sooner have sent carriers to the British in the Indian Ocean than to MacArthur (actually they did send them to the British before MacArthur!) MacArthur finally did manage to worm some CVEs out of the navy, but even then they were only to cover the navies precious PhibRons. I think the best way to represent this in a multiplayer game is to give the JCS control over all ship deployments, but also give the navy player a veto over fleet carrier deployments.

>>Regarding ABDA and the Asiatic Fleet. I think that ABDA should get to command the ships formerly from the US Asiatic fleet, as, historically they were under ABDA control. The US should reserve the right to pull them out, but, should incurr some sort of political penalty, or something, if they pull them out too early. It is bad propaganda if you abandon one's allies too early.<<

This makes sense. ABDA was a weird command, sort of cobbled together out of the bits left over after everything else had been allocated. It included Burma (which would have been better under CinC India), but didn't include Malaya (which should have been under it). It included the Philipines, but MacArthur and the Philipino Army wasn't under its control, but Adm Hart and the Asiatic Fleet was. It stopped at the Australian coast, leaving it unable to control the vital Australian airbases and port facilities.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 5:09 pm

Hi hmmm what ships did Mac get? Why look he got the survivers of the ABDA/Asiatic fleets
same as he always gets when I am the allies.
What does he need a bird farm for? He spends 18 months clearing out New Guenia then The Navy escorts his transports to PI. He doesn't even need transports except to get from US to Port Moresby they can walk every where from there. I give him ALL the B-17's
and transport planes. Pile him up with Iron Dogs and P-40's with all them funny talking folks and give him a year to get control of the air. Theres plenty of stuff for everyone only question is who gets it first and thats up to Japan.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

andrewmv · Post by **andrewmv** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 5:56 pm

>>Hi hmmm what ships did Mac get? Why look he got the survivers of the ABDA/Asiatic fleets
same as he always gets when I am the allies.
What does he need a bird farm for? He spends 18 months clearing out New Guenia then The Navy escorts his transports to PI. He doesn't even need transports except to get from US to Port Moresby they can walk every where from there. I give him ALL the B-17's
and transport planes. Pile him up with Iron Dogs and P-40's with all them funny talking folks and give him a year to get control of the air. Theres plenty of stuff for everyone only question is who gets it first and thats up to Japan.<<

SW Pacific theatre included Bougainville and and New Britian (thats Rabaul, Cape Gloucester etc). MacArthur's plans to retake these constantly floundered on his inability to get Carrier support. Eventually they were transfered to SoPac. Also he didn't have any control over the supporting carriers in the PI invasion. The fleet carriers were under 3rd or 5th Fleet (which resulted in the near disaster at Leyte). Even the 7th Fleet CVEs were actually under Turner's (CincPhib) control and Turner was directly under Nimitz rather than Kinkaid (Cinc 7th Fleet). Mind you he more than returned the favour by hogging the heavy bombers for the 5th Airforce.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 6:15 pm

Hi, yes thats all true but we know better then to even give Rabaul and Bougainville to SW Pacific they are South Pacific all the way. First secure New Calodonia and Espirtu Santo, then Santa Cruz, then the Cannal, then on up Shortland, Bougainville and finally New Britain. After that South Pac's job is done and those assets are what escorts Doug back to PI. The South Pac commander gets to have some carrier Navy fun after all those crusier/destroyer fights. By this time Cen Pac should be looking to jump close to Japan for a big airbase for his B-29's. The poor Navy and Marines spend all the war aquiring airfields for the Army Aircorps. Pac War is an airwar more then anything else. Its not a landcombat game just look how abstract the system is. As for being a Naval Game no Navy Survivies past losing control of the air. Keep track of how many ships are sunk by ships/subs/air when you are done it will be air/subs/ships. And air will have outsunk subs and ships combined. The allies don't need PI for any of this but its works to draw out the last of Japans assets so invading PI is ok. Its easier to kill out of supply Japs in PI then have them be waiting at home in supply. SW Pacific is a sideshow staged for our allies with a ham in the starring role.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

andrewmv · Post by **andrewmv** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 6:36 pm

>>By this time Cen Pac should be looking to jump close to Japan for a big airbase for his B-29's.<<

The B29 shouldn't be under the control of Cen Pac. They were always under the direct control of the JCS. CenPac secures the airfields and then hands them over to the JCS.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 7:27 pm

The poor Navy and Marines spend all the war aquiring airfields for the Army Aircorps.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

andrewmv · Post by **andrewmv** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 7:30 pm

>>The allies don't need PI for any of this but its works to draw out the last of Japans assets so invading PI is ok. Its easier to kill out of supply Japs in PI then have them be waiting at home in supply. SW Pacific is a sideshow staged for our allies with a ham in the starring role.<<

Historicially speaking the SW Pac campaign was neccessary for three basic reasons

1) To cut the flow of oil from the East Indies

2) To provide an intermediate stepping stone (the Philipines) for the invasion of Japan

3) To avoid *really* annoying the British. This may not seem important, but even Adm King realised that the US just couldn't afford to piss the British off that much.

moore4807 · Post by **moore4807** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 10:03 pm

Referring to the Brits being pissed off- that didnt happen until 43 when the US started making serious headway against Japan, then the Brits wanted some glory too.
PacWar is pretty good with the swings back and forth the Brits actually did with thier capital ships, pulling them out of Indian operations every time Germany twitched.
I think the real *reason* Doug Mac got his wish for PI was Public Relations by the JCS and not so much a steppingstone to Japan.
The US had been in war for 3 yrs now and other than Guam, PI was only "name" islands US could successfully take back that would go over well with the Home Front. D.Mac knew that and lobbied hard to be "the man" when it happened. (he actually spent his own money to produce matchbooks to airdrop on PI with the now famous saying "I shall return",
an arrogant ass but he pulled it off)
anyway this argument has gone on since that War

andrewmv · Post by **andrewmv** » Wed Nov 29, 2000 10:11 am

>>Referring to the Brits being pissed off- that didnt happen until 43 when the US started making serious headway against Japan, then the Brits wanted some glory too.<<

Actually I was referring to the fact that, after Mar 17 1942 (when the US took over resposnibility for the entire Pacific theatre including the defence of Aust and NZ), the British would have been mighty pissed off (more pissed off than the US could afford them to be) if the US had not mounted a serious defence of Australia.

Also, while Churchill most certainly did want the British Fleet to move in the Pacific, this did not start in 43. Churchill is fairly consistant from the very start of the war. And he was driven by a realistic appraisal of post-war geopolitics than any considerations of glory <g>

>>PacWar is pretty good with the swings back and forth the Brits actually did with thier capital ships, pulling them out of Indian operations every time Germany twitched.<<

Actually the RN battleship force in the pacific was fairly consistant. After Kondo's raid, it remained pretty consistant with the 4 R class up until the slow build up began. There was an increase after the fall of Italy in 43 and then the major build up after the neutralisation of the German surface fleet in 44. Generally (after mid 43) when a ship went to the Indian Ocean, it stayed there.

>>I think the real *reason* Doug Mac got his wish for PI was Public Relations by the JCS and not so much a steppingstone to Japan.<<

The JCS only agreed to the PI attack because they saw it as a base for the invasion of Formosa (which at that time was to be the base for the attack on Japan). Try launching an attach on Formosa from CentPac without first taking out the Philipines!

LargeSlowTarget · Post by **LargeSlowTarget** » Wed Nov 29, 2000 12:39 pm

Originally posted by andrewmv:
Try launching an attack on Formosa from CentPac without first taking out the Philipines!

Against the AI it's not too bad, given enough carriers (6 pre-war US + some Brits) and Hellcats en masse. Take Wake, Marcus, Iwo, Okinawa, and then Formosa and put the cork into the 'Co-Prosperity Sphere'. Waste no assets in SoPac and SWPac or even for Gilberts/Marshalls/Marianas, the AI will be checked by the Aussies + 2 or 3 US Divs with lots of LBA, and by lack of supplies, just cling to Moresby and Espiritu. I got Formosa in September 43, while Combined Fleet was still milling around Rabaul. Lost some CVEs and a couple of AP & MCS, though. But that was cheaper in terms of Victory points than slugging it out in the jungles for years. And my Marine LBA rushed to Formosa took care of the AI going berserk trying to force his way through my version of Iron Bottom Sound, i.e. Formosa Strait. Payback is a ....

[This message has been edited by LargeSlowTarget (edited November 29, 2000).]

andrewmv · Post by **andrewmv** » Wed Nov 29, 2000 2:42 pm

>>Against the AI it's not too bad,<<

Against the AI, I can hold Malaya and the Philipines!

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Wed Nov 29, 2000 10:14 pm

Hello, You can win the war without taking PI or Formosa or Java ect ect. Sink every Jap ship and merchant capture the islands close enough to bomb the home Islands and you will score more then enough points by mid 44 for Japan to surrender. The only problem in Pac War is how to get the IJN to come out and get sunk. SW Pac only has to capture up to and including Rabaul. Seac just has to al least hold at Mandalay. I let Doug go back to PI cause it's fun not cause I need to. I hope I meet a Jap nutty enough to try to invade Austraila. What ever Japan takes the Allies can take back when ever they want provided they whack the IJN. The Jap Navy is the primary target once it is not a threat it is only a matter of time, and sad to say it is only a matter of time before the IJN loses enough battles to cease being a factor.
When you are Japan in Pac War your only hope is to win the war before 43 a very difficult mission but the only one that can prevent an eventaul defeat.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!