Manchukuo Armed Forces research

[m10bob]

One of our members has made a career option of finding fault with all things about CHS and it's creators..
I have decided to help the critic rather than just continue my collection for that hammer I offered to buy him..
Please see this website which will show the strength of the Manchukuo Air Force in 1945.(It may be seen half of their 1000 aircraft were either trainers,or recon planes.).
By going to the parent page of this site,it may also be seen the ONLY time Manchukuo did any actual fighting was in August 1945 when they were invaded by the USSR,and the fighting was purely defensive..
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_ ... battle.htm
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... gust-Storm
**And here we have the MIGHTY Manchuoko GRAND FLEET!!!!!!!!!!! :
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/014 ... chuko.html
(Looks like roughly 20 PT boats to me??)
Go s**t or go blind.............

[Tomo]

Oh! Manchukuo[:D]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchukuo

http://orbat.com/site/history/historica ... hukuo.html

and more...
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

One of our members has made a career option of finding fault with all things about CHS and it's creators..
I have decided to help the critic rather than just continue my collection for that hammer I offered to buy him..
Please see this website which will show the strength of the Manchukuo Air Force in 1945.(It may be seen half of their 1000 aircraft were either trainers,or recon planes.).
By going to the parent page of this site,it may also be seen the ONLY time Manchukuo did any actual fighting was in August 1945 when they were invaded by the USSR,and the fighting was purely defensive..
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_ ... battle.htm
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... gust-Storm
Go s**t or go blind.............

Refer to Tomo's post specifically his second link...

http://orbat.com/site/history/historica ... hukuo.html

I believeyour link is a reference to the entire Japanese AF in Manchuria which included the Manchukuo AF.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: m10bob

One of our members has made a career option of finding fault with all things about CHS and it's creators..
I have decided to help the critic rather than just continue my collection for that hammer I offered to buy him..
Please see this website which will show the strength of the Manchukuo Air Force in 1945.(It may be seen half of their 1000 aircraft were either trainers,or recon planes.).
By going to the parent page of this site,it may also be seen the ONLY time Manchukuo did any actual fighting was in August 1945 when they were invaded by the USSR,and the fighting was purely defensive..
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_ ... battle.htm
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... gust-Storm
Go s**t or go blind.............

Refer to Tomo's post specifically his second link...

http://orbat.com/site/history/historica ... hukuo.html

I believeyour link is a reference to the entire Japanese AF in Manchuria which included the Manchukuo AF.

Yes Treespider........Precisely...One of the self-proclaimed (and continuous but not constipated) critics of CHS has made several claims that CHS team members are all "Allied fan boys" and will (and have done) *nothing* to help the Japanese forces.He has recently jumped on a bandwagon claiming that basically the "forces" of Manchukuo are intentionally being left out as this might be the means for the Japanese to "have a chance" of winning,(I guess)..
Amazing....
Even Yamamato himself knew *before* Pearl Harbor this would not be the case,and when ordered to make the attack,his plan relied on a "short war" ending with an Allied call for peace terms......
Now,we have yet another revisionist desiring to bring some sci-fi into this game..
We are all getting tired of his banter,and his once useful (at times) offerings have become tiring and monotonous put-downs of "all things CHS".
***Note CHS is only one of several mods,and my personal intent is to convince him he might be happier trying one of the others,(or using the editor to make one of his own),perhaps with the dark forces of the underground Vulcans we all knew lived in the Himalayas)....[>:]

[paladin333]

I am sorry for disturb you fight with "critic of CHS", but I undertand that you are member of the CHS team, so I want to ask you a couple of questions.
First do you really think that people who plays as Japan think only about how to loose the war as soon as possible?
Dont you think that such people trying to do better than Japan did in RL?
Why CHS team bringing in Soviet Navy that didnt do anything in war but dont think about putting the same meanigless(on the operational level) stuff to Japanese side?
Finally if the ulimate aim of CHS to completly simulate RL(Japan loose for 100%) why dont you mention it. Just put it on forum. "This mod is a complete simulation of reall life, dont even think to win as Japan!" If you do so, no one will be talking about Manchukou and Sian and Indian Army and all other crappy minor stuff anymore.

Japan cant win the war but it can draw in the game, and in the RL it has this chance too. I know that Americans dont think so, but anyway. [:D]

[m10bob]

Not a member of the CHS team,Gunner..Just a fan and amateur historian, like yourself..I just have problems with critics with nothing to offer, except....criticism.........

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Not a member of the CHS team,Gunner..Just a fan and amateur historian, like yourself..I just have problems with critics with nothing to offer, except....criticism.........

You know, that's what critics usually do - they criticise [;)] Reply to the tune of "why don't you make your own mod?" is valid to a degree, but it's like Spielberg responding to some over zealous film critic by saying "go make your own War of the Worlds". I mean, fine, but as responses go it's rather pointless...

Now, just go read your first post.... It just reeks of allied fanboyism and attitude that made CHS what it is!

"Grand total of 10 patrol boats" - so what? It's not quantity or quality that matters, it's the attitude. There are more useless and more ridicolous toys being added to Allied arsenal of "toys" - my favorite being that moronic floating dock in Manila harbor (I nearly fell from the chair when I first saw it).

The idea is not necesarilly to win the war (though it may well be) with those 10 patrol boats, nor with that ridicolous floating dock from Manila harbor - idea is to *treat all sides equally*. Winning the war is just a welcome by-product [;)]

Since this "equal treatment" is absent from CHS (so far, and in my personal opinion) and is being ridiculed in posts by you, Lemurs, and couple other guys, I don't see it changing... (Don's latest replies I don't take nearly as bad, I take them as well measured irony I may deserve).

Oleg

[Lemurs!]

Oleg,
We ridicule you because, like Tristanjohn, you criticise with no knowledge and refuse to listen.
You have never even looked at CHS.

We have zero slots left for Axis ships. Zero. 0. Zip. Nada. None.
Zero.
I am not going to add 10 Manchurian fishing boats that did nothing during the war at the expense of removing Japanese combat ships.

We have virtually zero Air group slots left. I am serious about this.
We have 1 Japanese aircraft type slot left, we have zero Allied carrier aircraft slots left.
We have zero weapon device slots left.
We have very few ground slots for either side left.

We are in other words out of slots. We are not removing actual combat forces to add stuff that was never used.

Oleg, go bug Mike and Gary and such about adding more slots to the DB. I have no power to ban you but maybe if you annoy them as much
they will ban you.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
"Grand total of 10 patrol boats" - so what? It's not quantity or quality that matters, it's the attitude. There are more useless and more ridicolous toys being added to Allied arsenal of "toys" - my favorite being that moronic floating dock in Manila harbor (I nearly fell from the chair when I first saw it).

Man let it go Oleg. They've already told you that CHS has used EVERY available ship slot, so there is no room for your beloved 20 PT boats in Manchuria that would show up in Aug 45. If you're going to criticize, try to be reasonable and don't make pointless attacks like these. It really makes you seem malicious and unreasonable in your motivation for posting criticisms.

*treat all sides equally*

I agree, therefore I now make an Oleg esq. demand that CHS immediately fill up ALL allied ship slots to fairly balance their pro-Japanese fanboy mod.

Oh yeah and give the allies all their heavy bombers back, if the Japanese can build thousands of 4 engine bombers now, the allies deserve that same ability too.

In all seriousness though, I do find it funny how hard CHS tries to hold the allies to historical numbers of heavies, but then gives Japan the ability to build thousands of fantasy heavy bombers. Strange bit of logic there I think.

Jim

[Lemurs!]

Jim,

I understand your worries but we as players have no control over production, so we as the CHS have to give historical production figures.

As to Japanese heavy bombers, Japan does have a production system that takes resources. By 1944 Japan SHOULD be building 2400 planes a month. I suspect with the way the production system works that will be very hard to match.
As an example in '41 Japan is building less than 500 a month.

Imagine how many extra engines Japan will need to build a fleet of heavy bombers.
Any Japanese player who decides to build heavy bombers in quantity
is not going to be able to build as many fighters as they historically did. That is a trade off, which is what a production system is supposed to offer a player.

I think it works well, would i like to see an allied production system? sure, but at best Japan might build 1000 Liz's over the course of the war... the Americans will get 300 B17's, 6000 B24's, and several thousand B29's.
Every one of those bombers is better than the Liz and in greater numbers.

Do you as the allied player quiver with fear now playing the CHS?
I doubt it, I think in regular Scn 15 the war would end in around June '44.
I think with CHS it might now end around the beginning of '45.

Japan is going to lose... So why not let them make the choices they historically had available to them?

Mike

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Oleg,
We ridicule you because, like Tristanjohn, you criticise with no knowledge and refuse to listen.

That's nasty and uncalled for - one thing I can't stand is being compared to TJ [:@]

Now seriously. Mike you're the one constantly poisoning these discussions with "ad hominem" attacks. Usually I don't care - in fact I never care - but I am not sure I can restrain from doing the same thing myself, just for the heck of it.

I don't care if you think you're "ridiculing" me - because being ridiculed by person I consider ridicolously pretentious, vain and easy to offend at the first place can't hurt me.

Now if we both continue in the same vein all we'll manage is for this thread to be locked pronto. The choice is yours my friend.

So, you have zero Axis ships slots left. Fine. It does not change the "core" points of my criticism. Obviously you used up all available slots to fill up with what you (plural) and you (singular, you, Mike Lemurs, The God of all things aerial in CHS) think is important. I have no objections to that, once we make it clear it's just your personal outlook on things, and what's important and what's not. Hiding behind laughable CHS "veil" does not make your changes any more official, verified or documented.

You're so vain you can't stand smallest bit of criticism for your work, and you take everything on personal level, like when someone points out what's blatantly obvious anyway - ie. the fact that all the changes you made are very poorly documented.

Fact is also that, you - as most of us - know very little about detailed combat routines used in WITP, hows and whys of all the zillions of parameters in aerial combat. These routines have never been published beyond the beta circle (perhaps not even there) - correct me if I am wrong, do you know, for instance, of all the instances "durability" parameter is used in air combat calculations?

If you don't, your changes amount to tapping in the dark (more or less) - whether you admit it or not.

Yet you took the liberty to change them willy nilly as you saw fit, document nearly nothing, and stoop to the level of "ad hominem" attacks when someone points out the obvious!

I have in fact looked at CHS (what makes you think I didn't?). Just the fact that the mod as whole is not accurately documented, especially so as regards aircraft DB changes, makes me very very suspicious, as I said many times. I tried many mods for many games, and am very reluctant to use anything that is not very extensively documented.

(Before anyone jumps in with "why don't you do it yourself?" - I am not interested in doing WITP mods - because it's mostly exercise in futility - but I did my mod for the game in my sig - and if anything, this mod is well documented and every change explained.)

Bah, I don't know why I am writing this... you may as well continue to live out your little allied wet dream fantasy, does not hurt me one little bit after all.

I will check it out from time to time and have a good hearty laugh, such as when I saw that floating dock in Manila harbor (I am immensely glad you guys obviously had free slot for THAT [:'(])

PS. In private mails Subchaser told me he's working on IJN OOB changes. How is he going to implement them if every OOB slot is used up?

O.

[Banquet]

Oleg, I'm not sure why the existence of Dewey Dry Dock causes you so much concern. It has no time to be effective.. it's little more than another VP for the Japanese.. but a nice touch, I thought.

Anyway, have you actually tried playing CHS, or just studied the OOB? I'd suggest you try playing it.. honesty, it's very good. I can't speak for PBEM, but as Allies vs Japanese AI I'm having a harder time than any other game I played.. so they must have done something good to the Japanese side.. CHS is no Allied fan, it seems to me.

[Lemurs!]

Oleg,

What is up your butt?
I don't know why you and Tristan both feel i am pretentious, vain and easily upset.
The only thing i get upset by is you and Trist bouncing in, making nasty furtive slanders and attacks and saying 'oh, i don't have time to make a mod'.
If you were criticising that would be one thing but you do not, you just attack and slander.
That does make me upset but as far as i am concerned rightly so.
You are the one who insults and attacks every one and everything related to the CHS.

I don't know what we did to you but this is just silly.

Should we as Japan have added unused Manchu fishing boats or should we have added actual used vessels that were larger than fishing boats? I know you don't think the fishing boats were more important and if we had added them instead you would be ridiculing them.
You just like to attack and insult because you seem to havesome emotional problems.

And on aircraft, yes i and the others at CHS made the final decisions of what to add... and your problem with that is....?
It was our mod we can add flying can openers with phasers if we feel like it.

So how do your 'core arguments' stand up? We made a mod our way and that was wrong in the Oleg universe?

A mod is always going to be infected by the personal views of the modder. If i had not worked on the mod of BTR i may have been willing to add some jets. After the research we did with that game i decided not to add jets.

I have no problem with someone saying my changes are poorly documented! [:)] I am amused you think that bothers me and i 'take it on a personnal level'! That is really good. Do you just make this stuff up yourself or do you and Tristan sit up late finding new ways to attack me and CHS?

Actually, i do not know everything in the WITP combat routines...
but, i would be willing to bet i know more about how these work than all but one or two other people on this board.
One person at least would be HardSarge.

I do not understand that if i am confident in my education and my knowledge this makes me conceited yet you want your modder to know even more than me because i do not know enough?

And then you say modding is pointless... in what way? We lowered B17 production to historical levels. If we did that alone it makes this a better simulation. If we did nothing else but that it would be a better game.
But you do not get that.
You just whine, attack, embarass yourself, whine somemore and then embarass yourself more with your pathetic attempts to seem superior to all us lesser forms of life.

Oleg, You are now the second person on my ignore list.
So please do not reply, i will not read it and you have yet to add anything to these discussions.
Unlike m10bob, treespider, Jim Burns, gunner333, or timtom.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!
Oleg, You are now the second person on my ignore list.

Great, once we have that crucial issue settled, lets get back on track, at least somewhat, is some CHS person actually able to answer my ontopic PS question? I will repeat it here:

In private mails Subchaser told me he's working on CHS IJN OOB changes. How is he going to implement them if there are zero, nil, zilch, nada free slots in the DB to do that?

O.

[treespider]

In private mails Subchaser told me he's working on CHS IJN OOB changes. How is he going to implement them if there are zero, nil, zilch, nada free slots in the DB to do that?

By modifying, changing or enhancing the existing slots...perhaps you can convince him to drop a random MSW or ML or AG in exchange for your Manchkuo fleet...

[Oleg Mastruko]

I am not arguing for damn Manchu fleet!, I am arguing for *equal treatment* of all sides. So far, 80-90% of CHS changes/tweaks/additions were on the Allied side (or should I say US side).

In fact I am not arguing for anything anymore, it's blatantly obvious CHS is just laughable allied fanboy fantasy with no attempt at being neither too "historic" nor "combined". It should be called "Subjective Allied Toy-Boy Mod". After every possible toy in allied arsenal has been added, now what we hear is that "there are no more slosts left". Great.

Anyway...

Treespider yours is still not a good answer. Subchaser outlined pretty ambitious plan to "refresh" the Jap OOB in CHS - I'm not talking Manchu navy here. Now I simply ask how is he going to do it if "there are zero free slots left"? Simple question....

Oleg

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I am not arguing for damn Manchu fleet!, I am arguing for *equal treatment* of all sides. So far, 80-90% of CHS changes/tweaks/additions were on the Allied side (or should I say US side).

In fact I am not arguing for anything anymore, it's blatantly obvious CHS is just laughable allied fanboy fantasy with no attempt at being neither too "historic" nor "combined". It should be called "Subjective Allied Toy-Boy Mod". After every possible toy in allied arsenal has been added, now what we hear is that "there are no more slosts left". Great.

Anyway...

Treespider yours is still not a good answer. Subchaser outlined pretty ambitious plan to "refresh" the Jap OOB in CHS - I'm not talking Manchu navy here. Now I simply ask how is he going to do it if "there are zero free slots left"? Simple question....

Oleg

It's obvious you are calling Lemurs a liar when he sez all the slots are filled.
Open your editor and look at the slots for yourself.
In this most recent posting,you finally come out of your biased political closet and show your true agenda.
You changed your accusation of "Allied side" to "American side".
I'm sure you really are willing to write off the accomplishments of the entire Commonwealth,New Zealand, Australia, China, Netherlands East Indies, and any other powers which have also been *added* to in CHS.
Since there is so much interest in Japan AND historical correctness, the CHS team turned rocks over to seek out more units to include in the Japanese OOB data base..
As far as being "fair",the war was never fair.
No war is..This is life..
I believe you need to either take my advice and alter a game scenerio which you can really appreciate, or just try to be a gentleman and cease your now useless tirades.
You asked for something, the answer is "no"..
Move on...
Be a man..
In past, I rather enjoyed reading your posts, but about 6 months ago, you turned on your fellow members of this forum, (IMHO)..It has never been appropriate as nobody till now has had to draw a line with you,(as several of us have now been forced to do.)
I for one would like to see "the old Oleg" return..........

[Oleg Mastruko]

Don't read too much into this m10. I didn't call Lemurs a liar (though I certainly think he likes to exaggerate and loves drama [:'(]). I really am interested as to how will SC implement his ambitious plan for revisiting IJN OOB he told me about, if all the slots are already occupied? Simple question, really, with no political agenda.

As for politics - my granpa, whom I respected a lot, spent the WW2 (40-45) in New York, working in merchant shipyard in Brooklyn, producing Victory ships for Allied effort. Being a foreign citizen, and sworn pacifist, he was unable to enlist so he did what he could in his position. Some of his friends were on Yugoslav merchant ships sunk by the Japanese subs and German raiders in Indian Ocean early in war, and spent the war in POW camps in Java (German raiders turned their prisoners over to Japanese), going thru every little bit of hell as other Allied prisoners there did (American, British, Dutch, and Norwegian - apparently there was substantial Norwegian merchant sailor contingent in that particular POW camp). Granpa later mentioned his friends' POW ordeal in a book he wrote. In fact three of them ex-POWs live(d) about a mile or so from village where I am now vacationing. I guess they are long dead by now...

So any suggestion that I might be sympathising Japanese in any other way than as one of playable sides in this game is simply wrong.

When talking about the game, though, I think both sides should be awarded equal treatment by modders, thats all. Especially if modders use quite pretentious title for their work (Combined historical blah...).

I fell into trap of making this seem as some sort of private crusade vs. CHS which it is not, but I can't govern the way people decide to perceive things [:-] I do my best to restrain from making posts that may be perceived as "anti CHS crusade" so as not to rain on other people's parade (though I don't think I will change my personal opinion) but sometimes I just can't keep my virtual mouth shut.

O.