jap pilot pool

[mogami]

Hi, Speak for yourself. I am in early 1943 and both airforces are fine. (In fact I have considerably more combat groups of trained pilots then I had in 1942)
If you treat them both as if they are entirely combat formations with no training formations you get that problem.

My IJN CV groups are all still veteran and well trained.
I have about the same number of landbased groups as I had in 1942 still trained.
I have a host of groups in training that will not be commited but will provide combat groups with pilots trained to 55 (as high as I can train) These groups have been providing trained replacements from the start. However the number of pilots I have in training now is 2 or 3 times more then I had training in 1942.

The IJAAF is larger now then in 1942 because so many of the groups remained out of combat (because they were equipped with poor aircraft) So as far as Army groups go there are more combat groups now then at any time in the past. (Newer aircraft result in more combat groups composed of trained pilots)

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: Tanaka



right so you are saying there should be no pilot replacement pool screen at all.

that they should just come in at the basic training level automatically as replacements for both sides...

am i right? is this what u are saying?

Im thinking I might edit my game so there is no advanced trained pilot pool for anyone....

Might make things a whole lot more interesting and historical...

Hi, It will not make it more historical. US pilots did not go to the Pacific before they had completed training. Japanese pilots are already trained on map so it is historical.

So what exactly is Mr. Frag saying here?

[mogami]

Hi, I think he is talking Allied pilots.
Or he has been drinking again.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Speak for yourself. I am in early 1943 and both airforces are fine. (In fact I have considerably more combat groups of trained pilots then I had in 1942)
If you treat them both as if they are entirely combat formations with no training formations you get that problem.

My IJN CV groups are all still veteran and well trained.
I have about the same number of landbased groups as I had in 1942 still trained.
I have a host of groups in training that will not be commited but will provide combat groups with pilots trained to 55 (as high as I can train) These groups have been providing trained replacements from the start. However the number of pilots I have in training now is 2 or 3 times more then I had training in 1942.

The IJAAF is larger now then in 1942 because so many of the groups remained out of combat (because they were equipped with poor aircraft) So as far as Army groups go there are more combat groups now then at any time in the past. (Newer aircraft result in more combat groups composed of trained pilots)

Mogami, Arent you finding it frustrating that airgroups with more planes than pilots dont do anything??? In other words you have to fill these groups with green pilots (which you will lose immediately in combat) or they are useless.

I really hope they will fix this!!! [:(]

[mogami]

Hi, I don't understand how you can have more planes then pilots. When you suffer the loss of an aircraft you don't always lose the pilot but you can never lose a pilot without losing an aircraft. So it should be more common to have more pilots then planes.
You don't draw pilots unless you say so even when you draw aircraft.
So no I don't have a problem with groups having more AC then pilots. Most of my groups have excess pilots and this is good because it means a few pilots are always getting rest.
(I would not like having 50 pilots in a 27 ac group but having 30 is nice) Most of my CV groups always have a few ac in reserve (and so extra pilots as well)

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I don't understand how you can have more planes then pilots. When you suffer the loss of an aircraft you don't always lose the pilot but you can never lose a pilot without losing an aircraft. So it should be more common to have more pilots then planes.
You don't draw pilots unless you say so even when you draw aircraft.
So no I don't have a problem with groups having more AC then pilots. Most of my groups have excess pilots and this is good because it means a few pilots are always getting rest.
(I would not like having 50 pilots in a 27 ac group but having 30 is nice) Most of my CV groups always have a few ac in reserve (and so extra pilots as well)

I have lots of problems with groups having more AC than pilots. They lose planes and then you accept replacements and then you have more planes than pilots and then you don't fly.

[mogami]

Hi, OK we are not treating our groups correctly.
1. You have combat groups. Combat groups are assigned combat missions they never take replacements
2. You have training groups. When the pilots in a training group are of the proper (or at least acceptable) level of training you send them to a combat group that requires replacements. When the group used for this returns you again fill it with piots (untrained) and aircraft and set it to train untill such time as it is ready to serve as replacements.

Forget the pilot pool except to provide untrained pilots to your training groups. (It should be empty of trained pilots by the end of the first week of the war)

If you don't have enough replacement pilots in training groups to keep up with demand of combat groups disband combat groups (to keep some in combat and provide more training groups at home)

(It is pretty silly to accept replacement ac if the result would be more ac then pilots and you don't have trained pilots in pool and don't want untrained)

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK we are not treating our groups correctly.
1. You have combat groups. Combat groups are assigned combat missions they never take replacements
2. You have training groups. When the pilots in a training group are of the proper (or at least acceptable) level of training you send them to a combat group that requires replacements. When the group used for this returns you again fill it with piots (untrained) and aircraft and set it to train untill such time as it is ready to serve as replacements.

Forget the pilot pool except to provide untrained pilots to your training groups. (It should be empty of trained pilots by the end of the first week of the war)

If you don't have enough replacement pilots in training groups to keep up with demand of combat groups disband combat groups (to keep some in combat and provide more training groups at home)

(It is pretty silly to accept replacement ac if the result would be more ac then pilots and you don't have trained pilots in pool and don't want untrained)

Oh I don't pay much attention to the pilot pool it is usually 0 or 1 .... but I don't like having most of my groups with 10-15 planes and 15-20 pilots, when the units are 27 strength ... leaving these slots empty for long periods costs something. Also always using the "Mogami" method for disbanding trained units ( of divided pieces of ) into understrength units, pays the extra 90 day penalty which has to be balanced against the possibity of training up a unit which just takes replacements in the same 90 day period and thus being 90 days ahead but a bit behind on quality. I seem to be able to rotate out groups and take replacements and train them up in China pretty easily espepcially bombers ( they train up a lot faster than fighters ) ... but I just want to add 5 planes to my groups that are under strength and have 5 extra pilots sitting around doing nothing. But when I do that .. they won't fly. If I could only accept the number of planes I need then it wouldn't be silly ... but the game only lets me accept all the way up to 100% period. So if I have 20 pilots and 15 planes ... and accept replacements, I have 27 planes even if I just wanted 20 planes. So it may be silly but I didn't design that way - so don't blame ! [;)]


I think the paradigm shifted a little bit when 1.5 added the "get pilots" boo-tawn. Before that .. you're right ... combat groups never took replacements because they would get pilots too ... the difference with 1.5 is now they don't automatically get pilots too ... they get planes ... too many planes ... and won't fly ... so you have to add the pilots somehow .. to get them to fly ... either by using the disband method ( paying the extra 90 days ) ... or by bitting the bullet and pressing "get pilot" and filling up with garbage .. which probably means you have to rotate them out ... if you could only get the # of planes you needed .. this wouldn't be the case.

[mogami]

Hi, I don't know what to tell you. I use the system and and in early 43 late 42 in most games and I have never had a problem. I don't even worry about the 90 days because I have enough groups when I disband a group it just goes into the cycle 90 days later.
I find it more likely that I will convert a training group to combat because it is ready and no group requires pilots more often then I don't have trained replacements for a group that needs them. My combat groups usally have excess pilots so if they lose a plane I just draw one. If they need pilots they always also need planes so sending a trained replacement group does the trick.
My combat groups follow a plath like this.
Enter combat with 30 planes and 30 pilots. If they lose planes and not pilots I draw planes. If they lose both the group waits till it requires 7-9 planes (they are going to come with pilots.
So when the group gets down to 20 or fewer pilots it takes 9 as replacements.

Japanese groups tend to lose nothing in combat or they lose 1/3 or more per day. So 1 training Daitai can keep a combat group in action for 3 heavy actions. I have learned to break off combat if I am losing. (I have learned to break off combat if I am winning but losing too much to sustain it)

After 1943 you are dreaming if you are looking for a method that allows all Japanese groups to be in combat and have replacements that are trained. After mid 1943 it is slaughter where the Japanese will require whole fresh groups more often then trained parcels.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I don't understand how you can have more planes then pilots. When you suffer the loss of an aircraft you don't always lose the pilot but you can never lose a pilot without losing an aircraft. So it should be more common to have more pilots then planes.
You don't draw pilots unless you say so even when you draw aircraft.
So no I don't have a problem with groups having more AC then pilots. Most of my groups have excess pilots and this is good because it means a few pilots are always getting rest.
(I would not like having 50 pilots in a 27 ac group but having 30 is nice) Most of my CV groups always have a few ac in reserve (and so extra pilots as well)

Im not just talking about Scenario 15. In Scenario 15 all groups start out with the same number of pilots and planes but not in other scenarios. In the South Pacific scenario you start out with 20 trained pilots in the pool. You have many many airgroups with more planes than airgroups and you cannot fill them all with trained pilots. The only way you can get them to fly is to fill them with horrible pilots and watch them get shot down...

Check it out this group is just such an example. 27 planes...20 pilots. With replacements off this groups is going nowhere...

[Zeta16]

I have more planes than pilots in my game WiTPdude which was started under 1.2 (which I think is the cause) with replacements turned off. I have no clue why after a few days a group of 16 will have 15 planes and 9 pilots from the start of 16(16). I think it is because we have been playing so long under so many changes etc . . .

[Mynok]

What's this about groups with more planes than pilots not flying? Is that new? I've never seen that.

If groups that have more planes than pilots will not fly, does that mean the plethora of groups that Japan begins the game with *in just that condition* will not fly? That I have to suck all (and it will take bloody near all of them) the trained IJN pool into these groups before the game even begins, rather than hording them for the KB? That's a steaming pile of bloody kaka, if true.

I have no problem with the training issue. It works just fine and I can get 50-60 level pilots in a few weeks working on China from Hainan. But this too-many-planes issue is crap. The whole purpose of the Japanese overstocking their groups was in preparation for combat duty....so wrecked planes didn't keep a good pilot from doing sorties.

[mogami]

Hi, While I don't have many (if any) groups with more aircraft then pilots the only groups I've ever noticed having a problem with this are the CV groups. I just did a turn 1 with Tabpub and my LBA all flew and these are the groups with excess aircraft. (I issue the pilots to my CV during turn 1 orders)
Zeta my game with Brady began with version 1.20 around 90 days after your game with WITP-Dude began. My game with Dadman began before your game. In both I have no pilot problems. (By this I mean all groups have 100 percent aircraft and pilots)
Of course I have not reached the Slaughter phase of the war yet

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I don't know what to tell you. I use the system and and in early 43 late 42 in most games and I have never had a problem. I don't even worry about the 90 days because I have enough groups when I disband a group it just goes into the cycle 90 days later.
I find it more likely that I will convert a training group to combat because it is ready and no group requires pilots more often then I don't have trained replacements for a group that needs them. My combat groups usally have excess pilots so if they lose a plane I just draw one. If they need pilots they always also need planes so sending a trained replacement group does the trick.
My combat groups follow a plath like this.
Enter combat with 30 planes and 30 pilots. If they lose planes and not pilots I draw planes. If they lose both the group waits till it requires 7-9 planes (they are going to come with pilots.
So when the group gets down to 20 or fewer pilots it takes 9 as replacements.

Japanese groups tend to lose nothing in combat or they lose 1/3 or more per day. So 1 training Daitai can keep a combat group in action for 3 heavy actions. I have learned to break off combat if I am losing. (I have learned to break off combat if I am winning but losing too much to sustain it)

After 1943 you are dreaming if you are looking for a method that allows all Japanese groups to be in combat and have replacements that are trained. After mid 1943 it is slaughter where the Japanese will require whole fresh groups more often then trained parcels.

But I think all we're saying is that when you execute this step [ the one I boldified above ]. You won't be flying if ... after having executed this step .. you have more planes than pilots ... which we're saying happens to us often enough to be a problem ...

[mogami]

Hi, A group will never draw more then it's max size in aircraft. A group will never draw more pilots then aircraft. If I lose planes but not pilots I can draw planes. If I lose pilots I get replacements via my training program where every new pilot comes with his own plane so I will never have more planes then pilots.
And if by chance I did somehow end up with more ac then pilots and this was causing my group not to fly I would draw a pilot.
No Japanese player who goes from Dec 41 to late 45 (early 46) is going to fight the entire war without having a great number of untrained pilots sneak into his combat groups.
All he can do is try to preserve his groups through mid 42 to give him a chance to secure his position. In 1943 he is going to be saying "45 experiance those guys are trained" In 1944 "35 experiance? where did these vets come from" 1945 "25's enough fooling around with flight school get in the air and fight you lazy bums"

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, A group will never draw more then it's max size in aircraft. A group will never draw more pilots then aircraft. If I lose planes but not pilots I can draw planes. If I lose pilots I get replacements via my training program where every new pilot comes with his own plane so I will never have more planes then pilots.
And if by chance I did somehow end up with more ac then pilots and this was causing my group not to fly I would draw a pilot.
No Japanese player who goes from Dec 41 to late 45 (early 46) is going to fight the entire war without having a great number of untrained pilots sneak into his combat groups.
All he can do is try to preserve his groups through mid 42 to give him a chance to secure his position. In 1943 he is going to be saying "45 experiance those guys are trained" In 1944 "35 experiance? where did these vets come from" 1945 "25's enough fooling around with flight school get in the air and fight you lazy bums"

Somehow we're not connecting on this one.

So how about an example.

1. I start with 27 planes and 27 pilots ( avg exp = 80 ).

2. I'm in action for a while and I get down to 20 planes and 20 pilots.

3. My base gets bombed by B17s ... and now I have 14 planes and 20 pilots.

4. I draw planes and now I have 27 planes and 20 pilots and I won't fly no more.

5. If I draw pilots .. I've added 7 pilots with exp=30 and dropped my average exp to maybe 65 .. so I should withdraw them from combat to train them up.

6. If we had a "Get Planes" button ... then instead of having to draw 13 planes in step 4 ... we could just draw 6 planes and wind up with 20 planes and 20 pilots and we would fly and we would still be exp=80 and we would not have to withdraw ...

I think this is all we're saying ( well it is all I'm saying anyway ! ).

[Zeta16]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, While I don't have many (if any) groups with more aircraft then pilots the only groups I've ever noticed having a problem with this are the CV groups. I just did a turn 1 with Tabpub and my LBA all flew and these are the groups with excess aircraft. (I issue the pilots to my CV during turn 1 orders)
Zeta my game with Brady began with version 1.20 around 90 days after your game with WITP-Dude began. My game with Dadman began before your game. In both I have no pilot problems. (By this I mean all groups have 100 percent aircraft and pilots)
Of course I have not reached the Slaughter phase of the war yet

I don't get I have a group on 50% CAP and that us not being attacked and I will look at the group like a week latter and there are 12 planes to 7 pilts. Really nothing at this point phases me as this game has been through so much. So I chalk this up to so many patches and late 44. It's like I am getting ops loses but more pilots go than planes or they go some where else. It is very hard to pin down and is very random, but I have learnbed to live with it.

[mogami]

Hi, Zeta it has to be a bug. Because under correct operation of the program you can lose a plane and not a pilot but you can't lose a pilot without also losing a plane. (Unless the other pilots are eating them)

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, A group will never draw more then it's max size in aircraft. A group will never draw more pilots then aircraft. If I lose planes but not pilots I can draw planes. If I lose pilots I get replacements via my training program where every new pilot comes with his own plane so I will never have more planes then pilots.
And if by chance I did somehow end up with more ac then pilots and this was causing my group not to fly I would draw a pilot.
No Japanese player who goes from Dec 41 to late 45 (early 46) is going to fight the entire war without having a great number of untrained pilots sneak into his combat groups.
All he can do is try to preserve his groups through mid 42 to give him a chance to secure his position. In 1943 he is going to be saying "45 experiance those guys are trained" In 1944 "35 experiance? where did these vets come from" 1945 "25's enough fooling around with flight school get in the air and fight you lazy bums"

Somehow we're not connecting on this one.

So how about an example.

1. I start with 27 planes and 27 pilots ( avg exp = 80 ).

2. I'm in action for a while and I get down to 20 planes and 20 pilots.

3. My base gets bombed by B17s ... and now I have 14 planes and 20 pilots.

4. I draw planes and now I have 27 planes and 20 pilots and I won't fly no more.

5. If I draw pilots .. I've added 7 pilots with exp=30 and dropped my average exp to maybe 65 .. so I should withdraw them from combat to train them up.

6. If we had a "Get Planes" button ... then instead of having to draw 13 planes in step 4 ... we could just draw 6 planes and wind up with 20 planes and 20 pilots and we would fly and we would still be exp=80 and we would not have to withdraw ...

I think this is all we're saying ( well it is all I'm saying anyway ! ).

Hi, I would (rather then draw planes and then have too many and thus be stuck drawing untrained pilots) simply send 9 pilots with ac to that group and have 29 pilots and 23 ac. Now I can draw the 4 ac and not have to draw untrained pilots. I would have excess pilots but they would be trained and excess trained pilots are not a handicap to a combat group.
Another button would of course be easier. And who knows where it would go and what bugs would come with it.
And of course it still would not solve the problem where groups don't have the supply or are too far from their HQ. (so the condition would still exist in some groups and onlty be solved by doing it the hard way and sending replacement groups)
Something you can't overlook about the training system. The supply is spent at home not at the front. (New ac cost their load value in supply and you must have above a certain amount at the forward base. )

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, A group will never draw more then it's max size in aircraft. A group will never draw more pilots then aircraft. If I lose planes but not pilots I can draw planes. If I lose pilots I get replacements via my training program where every new pilot comes with his own plane so I will never have more planes then pilots.
And if by chance I did somehow end up with more ac then pilots and this was causing my group not to fly I would draw a pilot.
No Japanese player who goes from Dec 41 to late 45 (early 46) is going to fight the entire war without having a great number of untrained pilots sneak into his combat groups.
All he can do is try to preserve his groups through mid 42 to give him a chance to secure his position. In 1943 he is going to be saying "45 experiance those guys are trained" In 1944 "35 experiance? where did these vets come from" 1945 "25's enough fooling around with flight school get in the air and fight you lazy bums"

Somehow we're not connecting on this one.

So how about an example.

1. I start with 27 planes and 27 pilots ( avg exp = 80 ).

2. I'm in action for a while and I get down to 20 planes and 20 pilots.

3. My base gets bombed by B17s ... and now I have 14 planes and 20 pilots.

4. I draw planes and now I have 27 planes and 20 pilots and I won't fly no more.

5. If I draw pilots .. I've added 7 pilots with exp=30 and dropped my average exp to maybe 65 .. so I should withdraw them from combat to train them up.

6. If we had a "Get Planes" button ... then instead of having to draw 13 planes in step 4 ... we could just draw 6 planes and wind up with 20 planes and 20 pilots and we would fly and we would still be exp=80 and we would not have to withdraw ...

I think this is all we're saying ( well it is all I'm saying anyway ! ).

Hi, I would (rather then draw planes and then have too many and thus be stuck drawing untrained pilots) simply send 9 pilots with ac to that group and have 29 pilots and 23 ac. Now I can draw the 4 ac and not have to draw untrained pilots. I would have excess pilots but they would be trained and excess trained pilots are not a handicap to a combat group.
Another button would of course be easier. And who knows where it would go and what bugs would come with it.
And of course it still would not solve the problem where groups don't have the supply or are too far from their HQ. (so the condition would still exist in some groups and onlty be solved by doing it the hard way and sending replacement groups)
Something you can't overlook about the training system. The supply is spent at home not at the front. (New ac cost their load value in supply and you must have above a certain amount at the forward base. )

Well I'd be happy to roll back the "get pilot" button ... wasn't my idea ... then we would'nt have introduced the "planes won't fly" problem.

I agree excess pilots are not a problem ...

Only problem is excess planes causing "group won't fly" ... and we should either roll back "get pilot" button ( my vote ) ... or add "get plane" button to fix "won't fly" problem !