New map revision, Request For Comments. UPDATE 05-08-16 Base data

[bradfordkay]

I agree with Hong Kong and Singapore, but Corregidor is not a base in WITP, but rather a fortress shared between the Bataan and Manila bases, so there is no way to add a river there.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
regarding river terrain:

curious but arent these all similiar situations???

hong kong
singapore
corrigador

all protected by water crossings in some way???

i guess thats why i see them as all needing river type terrain to cross into....

Not Corrigador, as it is not represented separately at this scale. As for Hong Kong, it originally didn't have a river - I added it to see whether I could make HK last longer (i.e. equivalent to historical). It didn't really work very well, and I am looking at alternatives for HK that will require some playesting. The river at HK might stay, however.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
regarding river terrain:

curious but arent these all similiar situations???

hong kong
singapore
corrigador

all protected by water crossings in some way???

i guess thats why i see them as all needing river type terrain to cross into....

Not Corrigador, as it is not represented separately at this scale. As for Hong Kong, it originally didn't have a river - I added it to see whether I could make HK last longer (i.e. equivalent to historical). It didn't really work very well, and I am looking at alternatives for HK that will require some playesting. The river at HK might stay, however.

should singapore and hong kong be made islands (atolls) ???

[Andrew Brown]

Here is an expanded list of the changes coming in version 4 of my map. China is still being revised, which is delaying things, and further changes will probably be made there.

---

Fixes:

[ol]
[*]There is now a river between Singapore and Johore Bahru
[*]The reef hexside immediately to the West of Palau was not represented in the map data. Fixed.
[/ol]

Changes:
[ol]
[*]Coastal swamp hexes can not now be used for the landing or picking up of ground forces, unless the hex contains a base. This has been achieved by converting these hexes to land or ocean hexes, depending on the nearby terrain.
[*]A new transport link type has been introduced on this version of the map - low capacity rail. This is simply road, but drawn differently, to represent those railways, narrow gauge or otherwise, that could not handle large volumes of traffic. Most of the rail lines in China have been downgraded to this type of "railway" except for the main lines linking Shanghai, Tsingtao, Peking, Tientsin, Harbin and Seoul, as well as the connection between Canton and Hong Kong.
[*]Apart from China, a few other rail lines, which were narrow gauge and/or low capacity lines, have been "downgraded" by converting the corresponding map data to road, and by using a new graphic for "Secondary" rail lines. The most significant of these is the central railway in Malaya, running South from Kota Bharu.
[*]The transport network in India has been modified. The rail link from Raipur North through the forest hexes has been downgraded to a "Secondary" line and truncated. A smal number of new rail lines have also been added in India due to the addition of several new bases.
[*]The coastal road in China, between Swatow and Wenchow, has been removed.
[*]Several roads in Northern China, near Lanchow, Tatung and Yenan, have been downgraded to trails.
[*]Chungking is now on the correct (Northwest) side of the Yangtze river.
[*]Ichang is now only connected to Chungking by a trail.
[*]The transport link in the single hex (43,31) to the Northeast of Chungking has been converted from trail to road.
[*]The transport link in the hex containing the base of Rahaeng in Siam (31,36) has been converted from trail to road. This should make it a little faster for Japanese units to march to/from Burma.
[*]The hex containing Hong Kong (43,42) has been converted from clear to urban terrain.
[*]The transport link in the hex formerly containing the base of Takao in Formosa (47,46) has been downgraded from road to trail.
[*]A number of base names in the Dutch East Indies have been changed:

• Bula -> Boela
• Banjarmasin -> Bandjermasin
• Macassar -> Makassar

[*]The road between Bandjermasin and Balikpapan has been truncated, so that these two bases are no longer connected.
[*]Moulmein is now - correctly - on the South side of the Salween river.
[*]The base of Yanam (21,21) in India has been replaced by the base of Vizagapatam (22,21).
[*]The base of Chandpur (31,25) has been renamed Chittagong, which was a much more important port.
[*]Dacca has "moved" from hex 32,24 to hex 31,23, which places it a more correct distance from Calcutta. This also improves the correct placement of Chittagong. The mouths of the Brahmaputra river have also been adjusted to suit.
[*]The transport link in the hex containing Kuantan (24,48) in Malaya has been upgraded from trail to road.
[*]Saigon (31,45) has been changed from urban to clear terrain.
[/ol]

Additions:
[ol]
[*]A number of new base locations have been added in India: Poona (19,12), Cuttack (27,22), Agra (28,11), Cawnpore (28,13), Mangalore (14,17), Jaipur (26,9), Madurai (13,21) and Patna (30,19).
[*]All Indian bases have had their manpower, heavy industry and resource vaules modified and recalculated. The manpower values in particular were not very accurate previously.
[*]An atoll has been added in the location of Male, in the Maldives (5,22), to provide the option of adding a base here.
[*]A trail now links the Lamon Bay and Manila hexes in the Philippines.
[*]A new base location has been added for Skagway in Alaska (122,28), and the railway between Whilehorse and Juneau now terminates here.
[*]A new base location has been added for Whittier, in Alaska (114,28) and a railway connects this hex to Anchorage.
[/ol]

[bradfordkay]

When you rename Chandpur as Chittagong, I assume that it retains the same base number. Does anyone know if the AI is designed to go after certain base names, numbers, or just bases of a certain size that are nearby? I suppose that it is no big deal, since I've never seen the AI invade India beyond Imphal and the other bases on the frontier. I still play as if it might, just because I try to maintain a realistic feel to my games...

I'm guessing that Whitehorse is mispelled only in your post, not on the map.

[Tanaka]

Andrew these changes look great! Thanks for all your hard work!!! [:)]

Also...should Victoria Point and Tavoy be connected by trail? I saw that Lemurs had mentioned this...

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

When you rename Chandpur as Chittagong, I assume that it retains the same base number. Does anyone know if the AI is designed to go after certain base names, numbers, or just bases of a certain size that are nearby? I suppose that it is no big deal, since I've never seen the AI invade India beyond Imphal and the other bases on the frontier. I still play as if it might, just because I try to maintain a realistic feel to my games...

I'm guessing that Whitehorse is mispelled only in your post, not on the map.

At a guess, I would say base numbers, and possibly base sizes. I doubt that the AI code would look at the names. I hope not anyway, since I have changed so many of them!

Yes Whitehorse is only a mistake in my notes, not the map. Will fix it - thanks.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
...should Victoria Point and Tavoy be connected by trail? I saw that Lemurs had mentioned this...

There is a problem with connecting Victoria Point, which I mentioned to Lemurs when he suggested it - if a connection is added between the Victoria Point hex and the adjacent hex which contains a railway, then units moving FROM the hex with the railway TO Victoria Point would do so in one day, as they would move at the railway rate, even if Victoria Point itself is only given a trail link type. Conversely units moving FROM Victoria Point TO the rail hex would move at the trail rate (assuming Victoria Point is given a trail). It is unrealistic to allow anyone to travel across the ithsmus to Vic Point in one day. In real life I think it took the Japanese 10 days or so to cross (before they built a railway).

Remember that link type is allocated on a per-hex basis, not per-hexside, unfortunately. That is the way the link types are represented and there is nothing I can do about it.

The maps I have seen do not have a link between Victoria Point and Tavoy. of course I may be looking at the wrong maps...

Andrew

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
When you rename Chandpur as Chittagong, I assume that it retains the same base number.

Oh - I forgot to add - yes it retains the same base number.

[jwilkerson]

Purely cosmetic - but haven't we been trying to use the names as they were at the time - if so should we use Celebes versus Sulawesi ?

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Purely cosmetic - but haven't we been trying to use the names as they were at the time - if so should we use Celebes versus Sulawesi ?

Yes, and I have already changed it to Celebes for this version (Don Bowen beat me about the head until I got around to changing it [:)].)

[Jaws_slith]

Ok just bumped in. Read most of the post but didn’t found it. I just want to start a new game on your last map. Will it be compatible or must I wait until version 4.

Thx for you effort it really improves WitP[:)]

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Jaws43

Ok just bumped in. Read most of the post but didn’t found it. I just want to start a new game on your last map. Will it be compatible or must I wait until version 4.

Thx for you effort it really improves WitP[:)]

If you want the new bases, you should wait. In fact it would be better for compatability reasons as well. It will still be 1-2 weeks before it's available though.

Andrew

[Jaws_slith]

Thx for info. I will wait then.


Good luck with modding (can't wait[:)])

[Lemurs!]

Andrew,

I appreciate the reasons for your transport decisions in Burma but i think you are not looking at all the data.
Adding a trail in Victoria point will allow the Japanese to move in 1 or 2 days... without that trail it takes 40 days or so.
There is at present no way other than ship to get any supplies into VP. Japan historically used this airfield before Singapore fell but a Japanese player cannot because you will have no supply.

Also, Burma is still impossible to get to from Siam. I realize it was difficult but this is now silly; I figure it will take Japan 40 days to get a force built up in Tavoy and then 60-80 more days to get to Moulmein.

There is also no connection between Bangkok and Tavoy.

Part of the problem seems to be the trail speed. It is way to low.
When the Japanese or Allies were marching at the kind of rate trail gets us in real life they were marching OFF trail on Guadacanal, Bougainville, New Guinea, etc.

Even in New Guinea marching on trail the Japanese averaged 8 miles a day and the Allies 6.

We do half or less on the trails in game.

I am just frustrated that your changes to make the map more historic is going to change the entire Pacific war.

Mike

[Lord_Calidor]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
[*]Moulmein is now - correctly - on the South side of the Salween river.

This is a welcomed change. As it stands currently, allies could easily defend Burma by bogging Japanese down in Moulmein. It's behind a river, connected by trails to nearest Japanese bases, and it's a jungle hex. All combined, if allies concentrate more assault values there, Japan will have very tough time dealing with auto shock attack, forts, jungle defense bonus and their own troops with fatigue in 60s.

Related to this, problems with Tavoy and Victoria Point. Maybe you could add TWO road hexes between Bangkok-Singora rail line and these cities? For ex. draw a road from a rail at 27,40 to 26,39, and then to VP at 25,39. Similar thing can be done at Tavoy.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Andrew,

I appreciate the reasons for your transport decisions in Burma but i think you are not looking at all the data.
Adding a trail in Victoria point will allow the Japanese to move in 1 or 2 days... without that trail it takes 40 days or so.

Are you sure that it will take 40 days? My calculations are that it would take a couple of days to get to the adjacent hex from Bangkok, then 15 or so days to cross to Vic Pt. (infantry move through jungle at 4 miles/day). In the one PBEM game I have played, as Allies, the Japanese attacked Vic Point by the beginning of January - 3 weeks or so. That is slower than real life (10 days), but as it is "all or nothing" because of the way movement is calculated, I prefer to stick with the current map

There is at present no way other than ship to get any supplies into VP. Japan historically used this airfield before Singapore fell but a Japanese player cannot because you will have no supply.

Again, are you sure? In my PBEM game Vic Point was captured by the Japanese before Singapore fell.

Regarding supply - according to the manual the supply path to Vic Point on my map has a value of about 60 (from Bangkok. A value of less than 100 is required) which means that it can and will be supplied overland. Not very efficiently to be sure, but I consider that to be historic, at least until the railway was completed at the end of 1943.

Also, Burma is still impossible to get to from Siam. I realize it was difficult but this is now silly; I figure it will take Japan 40 days to get a force built up in Tavoy and then 60-80 more days to get to Moulmein.

Again looking at my PBEM game, the Japanese had reached Moulmein by the beginning of January (presumably via Rahaeng as they did in real life) - earlier than they did in real life. They certainly started earlier than in reality, but it is not impossible to do by any means.

Actually, I agree with you that in general the movement through Burma is too slow, and I have already changed the Rahaeng hex to road. This will allow LCUs to move from Rahaeng to Moulmein more quickly (infantry should take about 14-15 days or so, which I think is reasonably accurate - according to what I have read it did take the japanese about 2 weeks to travel this route in January 1942).

There is also no connection between Bangkok and Tavoy.

I agree with you here - I think I should put a trail in, leading to the hex to the East of Tavoy, to make it easier to get to Tavoy from Bangkok

Part of the problem seems to be the trail speed. It is way to low.
When the Japanese or Allies were marching at the kind of rate trail gets us in real life they were marching OFF trail on Guadacanal, Bougainville, New Guinea, etc.

I agree - it is a nuisance, but that is what we are stuck with. The trick is getting movement and supply rates approximately realistic. In my view, the best way to judge these things is from feedback from anyone playing the game. Hopefully the changes I am making to Burma will improve things, but if there is a need for further adjustment I will do it.

Andrew

[Andrew Brown]

I have some screenshots of the new map in its current state. Hopefully it wil be available soon. I have made the low capacity railways less obtrusive and zebra-like. They are represented by black lines with small white dashes.

The first screenshot is India - Some new bases have been added here, and the rail net modified a little.

[Andrew Brown]

China - A lot of modifications here. No new bases but the terrain and transport net is more accurately represented. This area needs some more playtesting.

[Andrew Brown]

Alaska/Canada - a couple of new bases here.