Is this normal?

[Halsey]

I figure if you're playing against the AI that's the fun of this game.
Learning how to deal effectively with LCU's after bases are captured.[;)]

If you were playing PBEM I'd probably share a tip or two with ya, but I don't want to spoil your fun in beating up the AI.[;)]

[tsimmonds]

Because I have a lot of armor in my attacking force I inflict greater casualties than I take on deliberate attacks. Based on my experience in China the most efficient way to wipe out you opponent is to get your own army surrounded and out of supply. Once that happens you can really start killing.

Combat engineers work the same way as armor. Brutal disablements for the defenders.

The US HAD the base, and the Japanese were no longer
UNITS, that is the crux of the matter. In game turns, they didn't exist. They were just a local nuisance like rats and snakes and malaria. They were no longer a factor in the "Big Picture". Whether they "surrender" or just melt into the bushes, the campaign is over when they no longer have the ability to function as units. Or are we going to play WITP "man to man".

Once you take the base, what difference does it make whether IJ has LCUs in the hex? You just pounded them out, the chances of them being able to do anything to interfere with what you are doing are nil. Just suck it up and do what is necessary to hunt them down and kill them. It is perfectly realistic for the attacker to have to do this. Aren't you following current events? "Local nuisances" today are dominating global strategy.

[patrickl]

Hi,

I just had a similar scenrio like yours. You would need odds of 2000 to eliminate these Japanese! I attacked Iwo Jima with 4 veteran divisons - 1st Marine, 25th and 40th and 6 Australian, 4 infantry regiments, one engineer regiment and one artillery brigade. The Japanese forces on the island are 4 units : 19,000 troops. 67 afvs and some guns. I took the island in 4 days of fighting but the 4 units refused to die. I sent battleships now based in Iwo Jima to bombard them everynight, shock attack every 3 days and yet my casulties were more than the Japanese - now I know 2 infantry divisons and 2 engineers regiments. After 2 weeks, I pulled out my 3 divisions to Marcus Island. I then sent aonther 4 fresh veterans - 2nd Marine, 7th Australian, 24th and Americal with 2 more engineers regiments, 4 artillery units, 10 battleships to bombard, every dive and level bombers to attack in one single turn :

round combat at Iwo Jima

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 223806 troops, 2583 guns, 62 vehicles

Defending force 8769 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 1713 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
2520 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
813 casualties reported
Guns lost 20

1st turn, I got rid of one engineer unit,
2nd turn another engineer unit
3rd to 5th turn the 2 remaining infantry unit

The island hopping strategy is not an easy one. I avoid taking islands with more than 4 land units on it. Even with 8 to 10 good infantry divisions - it can be tough to take one island. Of course I am playing against the AI. Against a human player - it will be much worse.[;)]

[pauk]

I agree with cap and gown. IMO this is a bug. And it is not a minor bug! It is certantly bigger problem that "why some jap. garbage thiefs wont surender?". Why?

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter
Based on my experience in China the most efficient way to wipe out you opponent is to get your own army surrounded and out of supply. Once that happens you can really start killing.

.......

Gem, the real problem in this particular situation is that your units are also "blocked" (you have to keep them there if you don't want that this defeated, demoralised unit cut off your supply line).

[Andrew Brown]

In my opinion it is not unreasonable for defenders to sometimes hold out for long periods in such situations, especially the Japanese. There might be a few too many casualties to the attacker in such circumstances, however.

[pauk]

i do agree (mostly) with you. There were many examples in real life of desperate defence when units were surounded and refuse to surrender (especially Japanese). But, IMO, better idea would be higher casaulties for defender. When attacking unit get 2-1 or more odds it suffers only/mostly "disabled casaulties", not dead ones.

Also, have nothing against that allied units resist some time when they are surrounded, but i think that should be some limit (don't know - week?) if LCU wasn't destroyed before. Right now we have invincible units surrounded without supply,and attacked from day to day, bombed from the air, bombarded from the ground (i'm talking about units in the open area, not on the atolls). I guess they are full of heroes like John Wayne and Tito's partisans (local joke - in yugoslav partisan movies you always see two or three men who destroy 5 or 6 Tigers with obsolete guns, 10 partisans can defeat entire Italian division - ok, ok, it is not so impossible [;)] - or German brigade).

[Tom Hunter]

Irrelevant,

In my own case there is a problem, because the Japanese units in question are sitting between my primary port for unloading supply and the units that need the supply.

I had an interesting thought that I need to experiment with. When I added troops to my attack the odds moved in favor of the Japanese. Could it be that the ratio between tanks and other troops matters more than the total number of troops?

I agree the combat routine may be broken here. I wonder if matrix will fix it.

[Arkan]

if you have units that have retreated from their base inot the wilderness, you will never surrender or banzai. Works both ways.

"Never" is not correct, I have seen Allied units outside base hexes that got chased around by the Japs, retreated a few times and as soon as they were surrounded by J ZOCs they surrendered. In fact this may be the problem with fixing the bug that sometimes the routine works.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: pauk

i do agree (mostly) with you. There were many examples in real life of desperate defence when units were surounded and refuse to surrender (especially Japanese). But, IMO, better idea would be higher casaulties for defender. When attacking unit get 2-1 or more odds it suffers only/mostly "disabled casaulties", not dead ones.

Possibly. But the true test of whatever mechanisms are used is how well they simulate reality (under similar circumstances of course). For example I believe it took more than a month for Iwo Jima to be considered "secured" (my assumption being that this would equate to the last Japanese unit ceasing to exist). If the same thing happened much quicker (or slower) in the game then it is not right, in my opinion.

[Halsey]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

In my opinion it is not unreasonable for defenders to sometimes hold out for long periods in such situations, especially the Japanese. There might be a few too many casualties to the attacker in such circumstances, however.

How long is too long?
Till 1974 or 2005?[:D]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

The fundamental problem is that, the surrender/banzai rules only work if the enemy unit OWNs the base at the time of the attack.

As I understand, you own Guam. But the Japanese units are in your hex (no ownership however). Frankly, it's going to take forever for you to kill them. Broken or feature, that's the way it is. Example, if you have units that have retreated from their base inot the wilderness, you will never surrender or banzai. Works both ways.

-F-

Thats not true, the Japs banzai charged on Wake Island and were destroyed after the Allies had taken the base.

[EUBanana]

It so happens... that I have the combat report of a banzai charge on an atoll where the Japs did not own the base right here. [:D]

If I could only work out how to attach it...

[moses]

I can see the argument about units taking a long time to be dug out of the jungle or caves but it doesn't apply here.

Currently, units which are surrounded fight much better then units with a line of supply. And this effect is quite massive.

10-1 odds ends the battle in one day against any defensive unit with a retreat path. In these cases the defender will take heavy losses due to the retreat plus will lose a lot of morale and gain disruption and fatigue. There will be no mopping up required. The defender is gone.

Now cut the unit off and what happens. Now you can barely hurt it. But every attack causes you heavy losses. I've recently even had very badly damaged Dutch units which had been easily driven from their bases inflict heavy losses on the Japanese units which tried to finish them off.