Naval combat questions

[von_Schmidt]

I've just read the naval combat rules in the manual (for the xth time) and was wondering if someone could confirm/comment on the validity of my understanding...

1. Nr of combattants
first roll 1-N, where N is the largest nr of HF + LF in the combat (so N is either the attacker's or defender's force)
result is X

*then* another roll for 1-X
result is Y

Y LF/HF units will take part

eg: 3 HF + 4 LF
roll 1 - 7
result 3

roll 1-3
result 2

2 fleets will participate on each side

Conclusion: due to the *2* rolls, superiority in numbers is irrelevant unless both rolls are quite high. Expected value is 1/4 of the largest force will take part (1-100 = 50.5; 1-50.5= 25.25%).
The only advantage is that the attacker can try again with unused units and the defenders will already have been shot at.

2. How is determined which units will take part? Just Y number taken randomly from the available HF's and LF's?

3. Range determination
Combat can take place at range 1, 2, 3 as per manual.
Is this determined before or after the checks in points 1 and 2 above?

4. Range display
Is there a way to see which range is used apart from checking in the combat screen if torpedoes are used?


Many thanks,

von Schmidt

[JanSorensen]

1. If the attacker has say 14 units and the defender only has one - then its Random 1-14 (lets say we get an 8) and then rand 1-8 (lets say we get a 5) Then one side has 5 units actually fire while the other side only has 1 unit fire (all it has). So, there can be an advantage to having superior numbers apart from retreat purposes from this. Its just somewhat rare.

4. In the combat animation screen (which I never use) you can see the range the combat is set at.

The computer never forces a player to match up a Light Fleet against a Heavy Fleet if a Heavy Fleet is available.

Available here should be taken as "available between the units picked to fight" - not as "available in the sea zone". Take 2HS+2LS vs 2HS in a sea zone - and you will often end up seeing the LS fight the HS.

[JanSorensen]

A bit of testing as well as reading rules leads me to suggest it goes like this. Mind, its not clear to me either at all.

STEP 1: DETERMINE RANGE
- 33% chance for Range 3
- 17% chance for Range 2
- 50% change for Range 1
If neither side has any HS present and Range 2 is rolled it will be reduced to range 2.
If neither side has any HS or LS present and Range 2 or 3 is rolled it will be reduced to range 1.

STEP 2: DETERMINE number of ships taking part.
If the Range is 1 or 2 let N = HS + LS for the side with the most HS+LS present.
If the range is 3 then let N = HS for the side with the most HS present. (I am guessing here - but it would make sense)
Let X = random 1-N
Let x = random 1-X

STEP 3: DETERMINE which HS+LS take part in the battle
Range 1 or 2:
Randomly pick x units from the HS+LS for each side. If the side with least units does not have x HS+LS then pick them all. If that side has no HS or LS present then pick none.
Range 3: Randomly pick x units from HS for each side. If the side with the least units does not have x HS present then pick them all. If that side has no HS present then no units from that side will fire.

STEP 4: The actual firing
(coming later)

Note: I have no clue how CV fit in.

[von_Schmidt]

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

A bit of testing as well as reading rules leads me to suggest it goes like this. Mind, its not clear to me either at all.
(snip)
STEP 3: DETERMINE which HS+LS take part in the battle
Range 1 or 2:
Randomly pick x units from the HS+LS for each side. If the side with least units does not have x HS+LS then pick them all. If that side has no HS or LS present then pick none.
Range 3: Randomly pick x units from HS for each side. If the side with the least units does not have x HS present then pick them all. If that side has no HS present then no units from that side will fire.
(Snip)
Note: I have no clue how CV fit in.

Good stuff so far (bar the guesswork; dontcha now that GG has his own brand of logic?

Anyway, if the defender only has TR present (let's ignore SS and CV's for now - although I am open to any observations on these...), it seems only 1 transport will face the LF/HF's.
In my experience, if you attack 2 TR with 2LF only 1 TR will be attcked and the remainder will flee.

Any idea whether the picking of x units from HS+LS is completely random within range 1/2? The rules do not state anything and my experience with surface combat is fairly limited; I prefer using Carrier Air and subs since they *do* all show up.

On range 3: are you sure about this? Seems reasonable that if one side does not have HFs, the other side's HF still get to fire (free shot) - with guns only.

Cheers,

-von Schmidt

[JanSorensen]

About range 3. I am positive that if one side has no HS the other side gets free shots with their HS. I saw that happen when testing to make the reply for you.

It appears that its random which units are picked once the number is randomly set - but I have no way to tell.

How many HS are picked is the range is 3 is also not possible to tell. If could be that N = #HS or that N=#HS+LS but that the actual number picked is just capped at the number of HS present in case x turns out to be greater. I have no way of determining this bar making a large sample and even then it would be statistical evidence.

In short. I *really* wish the actual programmer (not just designer) would check the code and have someone write an explanation that makes sense. As I am sure we can agree the manual certainly does not make much sense. Its unclear at best and wrong at worst.

[JanSorensen]

Anyway, if the defender only has TR present (let's ignore SS and CV's for now - although I am open to any observations on these...), it seems only 1 transport will face the LF/HF's.
In my experience, if you attack 2 TR with 2LF only 1 TR will be attcked and the remainder will flee.

That is what usually will happen because their is a 75% chance that only 1 of the 2 LS will be picked (random 1-2 and then random 1-2 again if a 2 is rolled the first time). I just setup an experiment with 2 LS attacking 2 TRS. Reloading over and over I did see mostly 1 LS attack but occasionally both LS did attack. So thats well within the rules setup.

[von_Schmidt]

Ah, so attacks on TRNs follow the same rules as fleet combat; I should have realised that!
So best to go in 1 fleet at a time when whacking TRNs. Unless with Subs, which all show and attack.

Thx for running the tests!

Agree that some exact and detailed info from the code would be helpful. Naval combat seems to hold a lot more mystery and randomness than land combat.

Cheers,

-von Schmidt

[Paul Vebber]

Any idea whether the picking of x units from HS+LS is completely random within range 1/2?

Its not random - it looks at fleets THAT HAVE NOT SHOT AT ANYTHING and matches up heavy attackers with heavy defenders, it matches heavy with light only if there are not any heavies left that have not fired.

The thing that throws a monkey wrench in this is that firing flak marks you as 'fired', and thus if you fly even a bunch of fighters that can't hurt anybody into a big nest of ships, the ones that shoot at them "go to the end of the line" and only participate if all the ships that have not shot already are paired up.

Since heavies tend to be better at AA, they tend to shoot - so if you have say 4 heavy and 4 light fleets defending and you only have 3 heavies attacking, if you send 4 fighters in first, the heavies will tend to shoot with flak and then will only participate if the "2nd number" is greater than 3. If the "2nd number" rolled is less than 3, only the light fleets that have not fired will participate. If the "2nd number" rolled is 4, then the 4th light that has not fired will be added next, then if it is 5 one of the fired heavies will be added, 6 - a second and so on.

That is how it appears to work to my experience...

This has been discussed as whether it is a "bug" or a "feature of airpower" and a decision hasn't been made yet.

[JanSorensen]

Paul

Its not just a feature of airpower - far from it.

If you send in 2 HS + 2 LS vs 2 HS (no air at all) - and roll a "range 2" then you can sometimes see the 2 LS being picked vs the 2 HS.

You can also see a fight where the actual fighting units are
side A: 2 HS + 3 LS
side B: 2 HS + 2 LS
The 2HS and 2LS will each fire on their kind - but the "spare" LS fires on a HS despite the fact that there are just as available LS to fire upon (as all enemy units have already been fired upon).

Fact is - if this was a boardgame the rules as written would be hopelessly inadequate. Not as much because of complications from it being a computer game but purely because the description is not precise. This also makes it hard to tell if something is a bug or intended.

The manual/game is an interesting hybrid. Its almost accurate enough to be a boardgame - but fails in accuracy at certain places. I wonder if that is intentional. Personally I think it might be an error and that providing fully accurate and detailed information would be better

[JanSorensen]

Ah, so attacks on TRNs follow the same rules as fleet combat; I should have realised that!
So best to go in 1 fleet at a time when whacking TRNs. Unless with Subs, which all show and attack.

If you send in the ships one at a time though the very first one will make the TRS retreat. Sometimes that could be detrimental to your efforts. Just as east to send in a number of ships equal to the number of TRS and hope for the best. Afterall - the ships that did not fire the first time around can still pursuit. Again, depending on retreat routes for the TRS.