CHS Release 1.02

[Theng]

I just download CHS 1.02 and the USS Utah in Pearl Harbor has no data in it. The ship is in harbor but nothing else (fuel, ammo, weapons, etc) is there

[DuckofTindalos]

By 1941, the Utah had been converted into a target ship without weapons. They put it in to soak up Japanese bombs.

[EasilyConfused]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

By 1941, the Utah had been converted into a target ship without weapons. They put it in to soak up Japanese bombs.

As it did historically.

[DuckofTindalos]

Yup...

[Oleg Mastruko]

You know this kind of "logic" makes me shake my head in amazement every time (even though I say to myself I will not get into CHS threads *anymore* - obviously I am not a man who honors his word [;)], that much I admit)

Both navies - no ALL navies had tons of ancient rusting hulks relegated to "target ship" duty. Conway lists tons of ships that ended up as targets. Yet only some of them get to be modelled by CHS.

Which ones?

You got it: Those that serve to "soak up Japanese bombs" as its so clearly stated above.

I see a need for new ship class here - BS. Bomb soaker, of course. [:'(]

CHS dudes, who constantly whine they have no slots to add anything, still manage to find place for Utah and Dewey dry dock [8|]

As they say in those courtroom movies "I rest my case".

O.

[DuckofTindalos]

Calm down, Oleg... Remember your blood pressure.[;)]

[Ron Saueracker]

Hey Oleg.

I wonder if the dead sailors on the Utah and Dewey Dock would agree with you? Man, you just don't get it. The opening turn is pretty important in the context of the game, but has the unfortunate problem of all the BS opening move crap by players in the know, both Japanese and Allied (compared to their historical counterparts who knew squat). You don't bitch about the game mechanics which allow crap like Japan's first turn bonus being universal, when in fact it really should only apply to KB, yet you make a huge hubbub over a ship like Utah being in on the first turn PH attack (and it has every right to be considering the it's historical significance at PH).

I don't get it unless you are a huge rabid Jap fanboy. The CHS guys are historical accuracy fanboys...it is not an Allied love in.

[Bradley7735]

Yeah!!

And, the only purpose Dewey Dry dock serves is to give the Japanese player 1 point. It will do absolutely nothing else.

Even playing against the AI, I can't get it to safety. It's always sunk.

Don't forget about all those other allied ships put deep in Japanese territory on turn 1. Some more freebie points for the Japanese player.

I have not seen any bias towards either side in the CHS mod.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

all the BS opening move crap

There you go - "bomb soaker" ship class making trouble again [:D]

Come on Ron... since you actually admitted of never playing 1st Jap turn in this game, couple weeks ago, you know you can't be taken seriously. What would you know about any 1st turn Jap bonus except on the receiving end? I was shocked that (former) beta tester actually admits of never playing the crucial first turn of the game he supposedly helped testing.

Have you actually played Jap 1st turn in the meantime?

My experience is that *usually* PH results are worse (for the Japs) than historical. This is my experience, and is no way "scientific" or universal. Of course results may vary wildly, but IME on average they are less damaging than historic.

If CHS guys are so "heavy" on history (which IMO they are not) then I don't see any need for BS class ships in PH (and, being unmovable, they really serve no other purpose than to soak bombs).

O.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
Even playing against the AI, I can't get it to safety. It's always sunk.

Thank you for making my point [;)] If it's always sunk then it does its BS duty quite well.

Since it's unmovable, and dies with the harbor, it's actually a "harbor equipment" not a ship.

Just another example of strange logic CHS uses. Of all the dozens of floating docks in the Pacific this one is modelled others are not? [>:] Mishmash approach to wargame scenario design to say the least (if not straightfoward Allied fanboyism but I won't say it this time [8|], no I didn't say it! [:-])

O.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
Even playing against the AI, I can't get it to safety. It's always sunk.

Thank you for making my point [;)] If it's always sunk then it does its BS duty quite well.

Since it's unmovable, and dies with the harbor, it's actually a "harbor equipment" not a ship.

Just another example of strange logic CHS uses. Of all the dozens of floating docks in the Pacific this one is modelled others are not? [>:] Mishmash approach to wargame scenario design to say the least (if not straightfoward Allied fanboyism but I won't say it this time [8|], no I didn't say it! [:-])

O.

Oleg, I'm beginning to get the idea that you do not like CHS.

[pad152]

The only historical things in WITP and CHS are the time frame and name of some places[:D] The first time you click next turn every thing else goes out the window.


Japanese production it works if you feed it, but I'll be damed still if I can figure where things go.[&:]

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

You know this kind of "logic" makes me shake my head in amazement every time (even though I say to myself I will not get into CHS threads *anymore* - obviously I am not a man who honors his word [;)], that much I admit)

Both navies - no ALL navies had tons of ancient rusting hulks relegated to "target ship" duty. Conway lists tons of ships that ended up as targets. Yet only some of them get to be modelled by CHS.

Which ones?

You got it: Those that serve to "soak up Japanese bombs" as its so clearly stated above.

I see a need for new ship class here - BS. Bomb soaker, of course. [:'(]

CHS dudes, who constantly whine they have no slots to add anything, still manage to find place for Utah and Dewey dry dock [8|]

As they say in those courtroom movies "I rest my case".

O.

Actually the Utah did have guns, they were just covered up, because she was a target ship as well as a anti-aircraft school ship. She was capable of propulsion but the CHS designers decided not to give her any. Most starts I have done the Dewey Dock manages to get to Darwin unscathed... And she is an AR thus counts for the AR bonus for ship repair.

In a mod I am working on I am taking the basic CHS v1.02 and adding some of my own ideas. Like the Utah, for instance, she is still a BB at Pearl with all her guns disabled. The Japanese thought she was a BB, so why disappoint them. If she survives she will live on as a PG with basically an asymetrical suite of heavy and light AA guns. I am also thinking about creating a class of floating drydocks... as in real life.

My point is stop bitchin about what is not or is and create your own mod. Let the forum know that you thinks something is stinky, and if they do not buy into it then make the change yourself to your game. That is why they included an editor. After I finish with the Allies I am going to look long and hard at what I can get done for the Japanese. This might include the possibility of producing some additional carriers (another Taiho and maybe a pair of improved - and yeah I know, production might not alow it, but let the Japanese decide that). Who know's???

[Sardaukar]

I had bit of trouble in CHS 1.01 about aircraft replacements. New Command HQs and Andy's map seemed to give bit strange results in Burma and Australia. Some planes took strange routes to try to joint their parent unit when replacements were created in Command HQ. No biggie, just had to keep an eye on them and move manually.

P-40B very low replacement/production rate caused my AVG to be useless for couple of months too. When unit is in base with less than 20 000 supply it has to move closer to HQ..or HQ has to move closer to upgrade. But..with 0 planes, air units cannot be transferred ! So I had either to ship SEAC HQ closer or wait until unit gets 1 plane. I chose latter and wait was *painful* !!

No big deals, just have to be careful when I start new 1.02 campaign. I seem to recall that some HQ things in that have been changed..or is it only base ownership ??

Cheers,

M.S.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

all the BS opening move crap

There you go - "bomb soaker" ship class making trouble again [:D]

Come on Ron... since you actually admitted of never playing 1st Jap turn in this game, couple weeks ago, you know you can't be taken seriously. What would you know about any 1st turn Jap bonus except on the receiving end? I was shocked that (former) beta tester actually admits of never playing the crucial first turn of the game he supposedly helped testing.

Have you actually played Jap 1st turn in the meantime?

My experience is that *usually* PH results are worse (for the Japs) than historical. This is my experience, and is no way "scientific" or universal. Of course results may vary wildly, but IME on average they are less damaging than historic.

If CHS guys are so "heavy" on history (which IMO they are not) then I don't see any need for BS class ships in PH (and, being unmovable, they really serve no other purpose than to soak bombs).

O.

Regarding playing as Japan, I never have played as PBEM Japanese. I played the opening move as Japan a few times times to get a feel for it, but stuck with Allies as this was where I did the majority of ship class detail changes (I was responsible for the Allies with Rich Dionne) and one may as well specialize in a game this size if one wants to catch booboos. We missed a million as it was due to the scope of the game and the relatively small team involved.

Regarding the opening move bonus, just ask Pry whether or not it is too bloody universal. His scenario 16 attempts to bring the bogus timeline back into whack and does a pretty good job considering the mechanics one has to deal with. I will stick to my guns on this...the opening move is BS. Either allow only the KB TF this move, or remove the bonus feature entirely and simply have KB start within range of PH, something I have always thought necessary anyway as PH was the cog in the Japanese opening moves and opting for the Jap player to bomb Manila instead to destroy the subs which were mainly submerged in the harbor historically, or any other BS opening move, is another one of those weird occurences thanks largely to game mechanics and inevitable forseen knowledge of enemy force deployment. The more one reduces the effect of this (like forcing the players to follow historical opening moves...both sides) the better.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Regarding the opening move bonus, just ask Pry whether or not it is too bloody universal. His scenario 16 attempts to bring the bogus timeline back into whack and does a pretty good job considering the mechanics one has to deal with. I will stick to my guns on this...the opening move is BS. Either allow only the KB TF this move, or remove the bonus feature entirely and simply have KB start within range of PH, something I have always thought necessary anyway as PH was the cog in the Japanese opening moves and opting for the Jap player to bomb Manila instead to destroy the subs which were mainly submerged in the harbor historically, or any other BS opening move, is another one of those weird occurences thanks largely to game mechanics and inevitable forseen knowledge of enemy force deployment. The more one reduces the effect of this (like forcing the players to follow historical opening moves...both sides) the better.

What do you mean by "universal bonus"? You mean the surprise bonus on the opening turn?

Personally I have no opinion on this, and I never argued that Japanese bonus should be "universal" so you're talking to the wrong man here...

Anyway... I think it can be dealt with using the house rules. In all my PBEMs there was house rule "only one port attack on turn 1" - so the attacker decides whether to use it on PH, Singapore, Manila or whatever. Or you can play #16 and have post-PH "clean start".

Also, surprise bonus can be turned off altogether in the game preferences, so I don't see what's the fuss?

BUT, if your preferred way of dealing with what you call "universal bonus" is adding rusting hulls as BS class ships (bomb soakers) that is something I think is fundamentally wrong on so many levels.

O.

[Sharkosaurus rex]

During the PH attack Utah was covered in wooden beams and the Japs mistook her as a CV and that's way they dropped some bombs on it.
But having Utah in PH only make it harder for the Japs to get a good concentration on the BBs.

[Captain Cruft]

Ron is talking about the 1st turn Japanese naval movement bonus. It would help if people were more specific when they talk about things though

As a CHS player I can state quite categorically that it is not biased to the Allies. Nor to the Japanese. It is simply trying to be historical. I have no doubt that, given enough slots, we would have seen all the multidinous "rusting hulks" and floating dry docks that actually existed. The Utah and Dewey are featured because they played a role in history.

[Ron Saueracker]

Thank you Capt Cruft, the Utah played a fairly huge role, unfortunate for her, and her sacrifice is why she was advocated.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Regarding the opening move bonus, just ask Pry whether or not it is too bloody universal. His scenario 16 attempts to bring the bogus timeline back into whack and does a pretty good job considering the mechanics one has to deal with. I will stick to my guns on this...the opening move is BS. Either allow only the KB TF this move, or remove the bonus feature entirely and simply have KB start within range of PH, something I have always thought necessary anyway as PH was the cog in the Japanese opening moves and opting for the Jap player to bomb Manila instead to destroy the subs which were mainly submerged in the harbor historically, or any other BS opening move, is another one of those weird occurences thanks largely to game mechanics and inevitable forseen knowledge of enemy force deployment. The more one reduces the effect of this (like forcing the players to follow historical opening moves...both sides) the better.

What do you mean by "universal bonus"? You mean the surprise bonus on the opening turn?

Personally I have no opinion on this, and I never argued that Japanese bonus should be "universal" so you're talking to the wrong man here...

Anyway... I think it can be dealt with using the house rules. In all my PBEMs there was house rule "only one port attack on turn 1" - so the attacker decides whether to use it on PH, Singapore, Manila or whatever. Or you can play #16 and have post-PH "clean start".

Also, surprise bonus can be turned off altogether in the game preferences, so I don't see what's the fuss?

BUT, if your preferred way of dealing with what you call "universal bonus" is adding rusting hulls as BS class ships (bomb soakers) that is something I think is fundamentally wrong on so many levels.

O.

Universal bonus was my reference to all naval units Japanese which get the magic carpet ride on the first turn, when historically, it applied to only KB. The game gives the bonus so the IJ player can get KB all the way to Hawaii, but by doing so, completely frigs the game from square one by allowing all TFs the same consideration....major design booboo. This was complained about during Alpha but no joy.