PBEM diplomacy limitations

[TheOldMan]

A great deal of the fun and tension in a PBEM game with 7 or 8 players is in trying to gauge who you can trust -- and ocasionally stabbing an erstwhile ally in the back! Well, it should be. In an 1805 scenario, I am trying to get my nation, Russia, to break from the coalition with Britain, Austria, and Sweden, and to ally with France. On the Set Policy screen, I have checked "Aggressive" toward Austria, Britain, and Sweden, and "Alliance" toward France and Spain. The Diplomacy screen allowed me to cancel my alliance with Austria, and then to violate Austria's neutrality, but not to declare war on Austria. France (with its policy toward Russia set on "Alliance") and Russia have been offering each other a Ceasefire every turn, but the electronic underlings in our Foreign Ministries refuse to accept their Emperors' will -- every Ceasefire offer is rejected! Is it possible for a nation to change sides without first surrendering? Do the smiling/frowning faces on the Diplomacy/Relations window determine foreign policy, in defiance of the monarch's wishes expressed in the Set Policy window? [&:]

[YohanTM2]

#@#$% bureaucrats. They always get there way

[TheOldMan]

The Game Manual (page 74, PBEM) says:
"If aggressive is turned on, then a nation will take any aggressive positions toward that nation whenever they arise (issuing ultimatums, declaring protectorates when the other nation goes to war with countries, etc). If aggressive is turned on, nations will refuse offers of cease fire and limited surrender."
Austria has "aggressive" turned on toward Russia.
Russia has "aggressive" turned on toward Austria.
Russia has "alliance" turned on toward France.
France has "alliance" turned on toward Russia.

When Russia cancelled its alliance with Austria, and violated Austrian neutrality, Austria should have issued an ultimatum to Russia. Didn't happen.

Since Russia and France do not have "aggressive" turned on toward each other, they should have accepted their mutual offers of cease fire. Didn't happen.

Is the PBEM Set Policy function working at all? Any PBEM games having better results? [&:]

[ess1]

If this problem isn't sorted then the whole point of PBEM for a "Diplomatic" type game is rather pointless surely? Did anyone testing game spot this anomaly I wonder?

[Lee James]

Well yes they did, you see this is a 'beta' and we are testing it so somebody did find it during testing; you did, just now.

[ess1]

Unpaid helper just doing his bit[8|]

[TheOldMan]

Progress: After 7 turns, France and Russia have achieved a cease fire! The electronic Foreign Ministry bureaucrats still reject offers to form an alliance between France and Russia. Russia is still not given the option of declaring war on Austria.

Is there a built-in delay -- not mentioned in the Manual -- that prevents a declaration of war against a former ally for a certain number of turns after breaking the alliance?

More generally: What factors determine which options appear on the pop-up menu of diplomatic actions possible against a particular country? The manual says: "The list will vary by country, depending on the relation between the player nation and that nation or country." Does the PBEM Set Policy choice of "Aggressive" make it more likely that the options "Declare War" and "Surprise Attack" will become available?

Do I have to alienate the people of Austria -- wipe the grin off their little green faces, [:'(] and make them turn red with anger [:@] -- before Russia can declare war? If so, how? I already refuse to trade with them. Would it help if I sent my diplomats into Austria to spread Propaganda?

For a monarchy, it shouldn't be this hard to change sides! At Tilsit in July 1807, France and Russia became allies, after being enemies since April 1805 -- only to become enemies again in 1812.

[Ralegh]

I think something else is happening here.

Who else are you at war with? The game won't let you declare war on some who is at war with someone you are at war with. To change sides, you need to go to peace with everyone, and only then declare some new wars. You will need to break the alliances before you will be allowed to declare war.

- I agree that the cease fire shouldnot have been rejected, but I note that the settings responsible for that were not among the ones you listed earlier in the post... It is possible that there si a bug here - I will try to reproduce and submit for correction.

On other points raised in this thread:
- The similie faces have no effect if the country is being run by a human - and you can declare war on someone with big smilies.
- AFAIK there is no delay after breaking an alliance before you can declare war
- Beta testers are unpaid volunteers, not members of staff (not to imply that members of staff get paid either - you would need to sell a lot of copies of COG to come even close to breaking even on the development effort - I reckon it must be a labour of love, not a commercial venture, and that everyone involved either has a real job as well, or has retired!)

[TheOldMan]

ORIGINAL: Ralegh
Who else are you at war with? The game won't let you declare war on some who is at war with someone you are at war with. To change sides, you need to go to peace with everyone, and only then declare some new wars. You will need to break the alliances before you will be allowed to declare war.

Aha! Russia was still at war (nominally) with Spain, from the start of the 1805 scenario. Once a cease fire was arranged between Russia and Spain, Russia gained the ability to declare war on Austria. Great! [:D]

- I agree that the cease fire shouldnot have been rejected, but I note that the settings responsible for that were not among the ones you listed earlier in the post... It is possible that there is a bug here - I will try to reproduce and submit for correction.

It may be that only one box per nation can be checked in the PBEM Set Policy window. I ran two PBEM test matches.
Test Match 1: When both "Trade" and "Alliance" were checked (but "Aggressive" unchecked) by both nations concerned, cease fire offers were rejected.
Test Match 2: When only "Alliance" was checked by both nations concerned ("Aggressive" and "Trade" unchecked), cease fire offers were accepted immediately.

In Test Match 2, Russia used its September 1805 diplomatic action to cancel Russia's alliance with Austria. France and Spain each offered a cease fire to Russia in Sept 05; both were accepted.
In October 05, Russia declared war on Austria. France and Spain each offered alliance to Russia -- Russia refused both alliances!

The October results appear to indicate that, as Ralegh says, you can declare war on Austria if you are not at war against any nation already at war against Austria: The enemy of my enemy cannot become an enemy.

The refusal of the Oct 05 alliance offers, although Russia, France, and Spain all had "Alliance" mutually checked on PBEM Set Policy, may point up another restriction: You cannot form an alliance with a nation at war against a current ally. Since Russia remained allied with Britain and Sweden, both at war against France and Spain, Russia could not accept alliance with France or Spain: The enemy of my friend cannot become a friend."

Gotta try breaking the Russian-British and Russian-Swedish alliances now...
We still have a problem. Even after Russia broke its alliances with Sweden and Britain, and with Spain and France offering Russia alliance every turn -- and Russia offering an alliance to Spain or France every turn, once Russia was through dismantling its old alliances -- every Spanish-Russian and French-Russian alliance offer is rejected!
In March 1806:
Russia has no alliances, is at war with Austria.
France and Spain are allied only to each other.
France and Spain are at war with Austria, Britain, and Sweden.
France, Spain, and Russia all have "Alliance" chosen for each other on the Set Policy window.
So, what is preventing acceptance of a French-Russian or Spanish-Russian alliance? [&:]

Another question: On the PBEM Set Policy window, each nation has boxes to check for itself, as well as for the 7 other nations. Should a nation check "Alliance" for itself, or uncheck all the boxes?

[ericbabe]

The game could use some more messages when DOW's and similar can't be fulfilled in the ways that players might normally expect them. There are several factors that prevent nations from going to war (peace turns, treaty clauses, mutual enemy) and it can be confusing when these factors prevent war from breaking out.

[aauminki]

Clearly you need to fire "Yes, Minister" Humphrey from your foreign ministery.

[TheOldMan]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe


The game could use some more messages when DOW's and similar can't be fulfilled in the ways that players might normally expect them. There are several factors that prevent nations from going to war (peace turns, treaty clauses, mutual enemy) and it can be confusing when these factors prevent war from breaking out.

Yes, that's true....but in this instance, I am the PBEM human controlling France, Spain, and Russia. If they had any awkward treaty clauses, I would know about them.
So: why do they keep refusing each other's alliance proposals?? [&:]