Bombing Midway from French Frigate

[mc3744]

Just came back on line and found the post stirred up some dust [8|]

Well, I don't know and - quite frankly - I don't care if it's gamey or not.
I'm not expert enough nor have I time enough to seriously contribute to WitP II.
The post was intended to reply to the question (posted by Harrer I seem to remember) whether - in the game system - it is or it is not possible to use heavies from FFS once built up to (4). Well, it is.
I'll leave to the experts to debate over the feasibility IRL of this. Personally I'll keep anjoying the game as it is.
Anyway bombing results have been quite poor and op losses very high. Maybe that can ameliorate (I hope it's English [:D]) those of you feeling that it's WRONG [:-]

Cheers [:)]

[spence]

(in reply to BobtheHatchit)

In point of fact the US Coast Guard maintained a Loran Station there and one time the LOGFLT went out with the daily bread and twidget stuff and found that the station (fortunately not the crew) had been washed away by a more than normal high tide.

[Mike Scholl]

Your answer about whether or not it was possible in the game was absolutely correct. Which led to the discussion of just what the designers were smoking when they made this decision pertinant. You were right, but in terms of physical reality, you shouldn't have been. No "poke" at you..., just another indication that the design team seems to have been drunk when they made some of their choices.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Your answer about whether or not it was possible in the game was absolutely correct. Which led to the discussion of just what the designers were smoking when they made this decision pertinant. You were right, but in terms of physical reality, you shouldn't have been. No "poke" at you..., just another indication that the design team seems to have been drunk when they made some of their choices.

You´re absoutely right!

[mc3744]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Your answer about whether or not it was possible in the game was absolutely correct. Which led to the discussion of just what the designers were smoking when they made this decision pertinant. You were right, but in terms of physical reality, you shouldn't have been. No "poke" at you..., just another indication that the design team seems to have been drunk when they made some of their choices.

I concur [;)]

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The FFS Naval air station remained open till the 1960's.
(People keep forgetting that in war it is doing what is considered impossible that wins)

Wait a second guys, that "little" airfield is a heck of a lot bigger than you think. Look at the waves breaking on the reefe around it. I live by the ocean and I can tell you that those seeming "little" waves breaking are good sized, and those buildings are huge hangers.

I don't know if I missed it earlier in the post - but it looks to me that that airfield is about a mile long anyway. Even at 1/2 a mile (which I doubt it is) that's TWO Super Carries end to end.
You could operate bombers there.

B

[Terminus]

From http://www.radiojerry.com/frigate/

The Military and French Frigate Shoals. Prior to World War II, the area had no particular strategic value. During the early part of the war, the Japanese occasionally used it to refuel seaplanes from a submarine. In one instance a seaplane raid on Pearl Harbor was refueled from this location. When they tried to do this again, after the Battle of Midway, they found that a complete Naval Air Station had been constructed by the U.S. That attack plan was cancelled. The shoal was now an important emergency stopover and navigational point for aircraft flying between Hawaii and Midway. Tern Island had been enlarged from the size of a tennis court to an airfield bearing the resemblance of an aircraft carrier flight deck, 3300 feet long and 400 feet wide. Eventually, the Coast Guard would take over the site and operate a low frequency radiobeacon and a double-pulsed Loran A station until the phase-out of Loran A. The station also served as a monitor station for the Central Pacific Loran C chain which had transmitter sites at Kure, Johnston, and Hawaii Islands. When Loran A was shut down, LORMONSTA Honolulu assumed the Loran C monitoring functions and the Coast Guard left French Frigate.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The FFS Naval air station remained open till the 1960's.
(People keep forgetting that in war it is doing what is considered impossible that wins)

Wait a second guys, that "little" airfield is a heck of a lot bigger than you think. Look at the waves breaking on the reefe around it. I live by the ocean and I can tell you that those seeming "little" waves breaking are good sized, and those buildings are huge hangers.

I don't know if I missed it earlier in the post - but it looks to me that that airfield is about a mile long anyway. Even at 1/2 a mile (which I doubt it is) that's TWO Super Carries end to end.
You could operate bombers there.

B

Agree. Furthermore, look at the shoal shadows and the wave patterns. If I wanted to take the effort, I could dynamite and dredge from the upper right to fill some more and make it three times as long. If I wanted more parking areas, I just fill at the sides. I don't think this particular "base" is more that 25% of it's maximum size, if that.

Such an effort would certainly NOT be cost effective in the real world, BUT if Midway were lost that would be a different thing. I suspect that a lot more effort than this went into basing B-24s in the Aluetians. I suspect that if Attu/Kiska had never been invaded, we would be posting pictures of Aluetian rocks and gripping that there was no way to operate heavy bombers forum someplace like that. [:D]

[Desertdaddy]

In the attached photo, what level of base would this represent? Level 1 would be my guess, just a landing strip not a level 3 or 4 airbase by any stretch of the imagination. With enough engineers you can build up a 0/0 dot to a nice base able to support combat ops. In the picture they just stopped building at level 1.

[mc3744]

Hey Terminus,

How did you find this? Radiojerry?!? [X(]
Man you are a net digger [8D]

[Terminus]

Pure magic! OoooOoooOoooOoooOooo!!!

Heh! Just googled "French Frigate Shoals"; nothing special about it...

[mc3744]

[&o]

[:D][:D][:D]

[Williamb]

Well this is a game where history can be rewritten so I dont have problems with a base exceeding its normal capacity.

not like a flock of B-17s at French Frigate is going to be a direct threat to the Japanese mainland.

Its just simple tactic relocation IF midway falls. Not a place like Iwo or Tinian that were very important for bomber strikes

[Oznoyng]

Okay, here is a bit of perspective. I'm not here to argue that you could put 200 B-17's here, though I agree that the Allies could bring in enough fil to make it even larger. The reefs, and the fact that waves are breaking indicate that they could have made it significantly wider and longer, had they willed it so. For the logistical capabilities of the US, it would have been possible. As is, however, I think you could have operated a decent sized B-17 force.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The FFS Naval air station remained open till the 1960's.
(People keep forgetting that in war it is doing what is considered impossible that wins)

Park two dozen bombers on it and there is no room to take off or land. And that's assuming the second dozen didn't crash into the earlier 12 trying to land in the first place.

Yeah but what you are looking at isn't a built up level 4 AF. That looks like a level 0 or 1 to me...

<runs away from the grenade he just tossed>

But seriously, I am not advocating gamey play, in fact I abhor it. The fact is Mc said he "built it up" meaning reality went out the window. He applied supply, manpower, Engineers, and such within the framework of WitP and created a whole new island the likes of which we never saw at FFS IRL.

If people have a problem with this FFS needs to be changed within the game to put a stop to an allied player doing this.

[Tom Hunter]

I went to the web site and read up on the place.

The airstrip was built by SeeBees, the original island that they started with was the size of a couple of tennis courts, they built the airstrip by driving steel forms into the coral and then filling it with dredged material.

The whole shoal is 30 miles across, and has 3 small islands, the other two were never developed. Truth is they could have put more airstrips there.

I am not going to argue that there is nothing wrong with the game, but I don't think building up FF Shoal is actually a big problem, or even a sign of a lack of realism. I do think the Japanese were as shocked as some of the people posting here, because they could not do something like this in the 40s.

[Feinder]

Not that I give a crap about FFS, but why is bulding up FFS any different than:

Johnston 4(1)
Palmyra 4(1)

And in many PBEM cases, Japan will at least attempt to capture build up of any of the following, to sever the chain to Oz (all are 1 normal, can be huild to 4) :

Baker
Nanomea
Nukufetau
Fun-n-fruity
Upulu

I don't have a problem an Allied player building up FFS, neither do I have a problem with Japan building up Baker (which is also very small btw, altho not as small as FFS).

Just keep in mind, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

-F-




FWIW

Airstrip at FFS = 3300'
Airstrip at Palmyra = 4500'
Airstrip at Johnston Island = 5900'

If it were me, I'd have made FFS 0(0). But nobody ask me... :^)

-F-

[Speedysteve]

Amazing. Look at that pic. Imagine being there if a BAD storm hit [X(]

I would HATE to be anywhere like that.

[Feinder]

I dunno. Seems to me that landing on the pitching/rolling deck of a CVE that's only 550' long, would suck even worse!

But yes, that little island seems fairly "cozy". I guessing you -don't- land on that thing during rough seas. The whole thing is only 2m above sea-level (according to CIA factbook).

-F-

[Sharkosaurus rex]

It should be safe enough.
The person who took the photo is obviously standing on a hill.