Actually the US was gearing up for war as late as 1940, how else could all of those battleships and carriers have arrived in late 1942/early 1943?
All of the planning was in place to quickly change civilian production to military means. Also, there were aircraft like the P-38, P-47 and such in the late prototype stage in late 1941. They also had the M4 Sherman in production by the time the war started, which was used for the next 4 years virtually unchanged. The M1 Garand was in full production, but equipping the rising continental army was much more important than equipping the Philippine Army (as new equipment was gained in the US old weapons were sent to the Philippines, read up on some shipments planned in November 1941, and they are pretty heavy in equipment).
The P-40 was the main USAAF aircraft since at least 1940, with aircraft like the Me 109E, Hurricane I, it was far from obsolete when in main service when compared to foreign nations. The F4F was one of the best carrier aircraft in service at that time with the P-40 having the capability of usefullness even in the role as an interceptor up to the end of 1942. The B-17 was the best heavy bomber in late 1941, with its only counterpart being the British Short Stirling. Remember, the US had to split between two fronts, and it was able to regain stability in the Pacific relatively quick (ie. didn't lose much beyond the Philippines, Guam and Wake, which were guaranteed losses anyway).
There were some idiots in the government who refused to acknowledge the inevitable, but luckilly enough they did not have that much sway on the President. The US was hardly unprepared.
Info about 2.3 Patch
We must always remember the US fought Japan with one hand tied behind her back (Europe)
Had things gone too terribly there was a reserve that could be tapped. Pac War no matter how severe US lossess can not represent all that the US built. (I never have 45 CV's at one time)8 CVL and 116 CVE)
The war its self is hopeless for Japan. The US resolve is much too great for lossess to diminish. However the game can be won but it requires a lot of luck and knowing when and where for the IJN to be employed. As the US I consider any PBEM game where Japan does not surrender as lost and as Japan any game I hold out till the game ends is a victory, regardless of what the points say.
Had things gone too terribly there was a reserve that could be tapped. Pac War no matter how severe US lossess can not represent all that the US built. (I never have 45 CV's at one time)8 CVL and 116 CVE)
The war its self is hopeless for Japan. The US resolve is much too great for lossess to diminish. However the game can be won but it requires a lot of luck and knowing when and where for the IJN to be employed. As the US I consider any PBEM game where Japan does not surrender as lost and as Japan any game I hold out till the game ends is a victory, regardless of what the points say.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Major Tom,
I have read in more than one place that several orders for "keels/hulls" were made in late 1930's by Congress without the funding appropriations for completion. (that says to me they were edging-but-hedging thier bets on the war- Euorpean or Pacific)
While I cant disagree about the production once the war began ( I should probably be more correct to say war was looming), several prototypes were revived that were discards/rejects from the drawing room floor... P-38's had that compressability dive problem, (Martin Caidin's P-38 Wing Tailed Devil)it was intially rejected by the US because of that... P-47 I think was in prototype-NO argument there. but NEW P-35's were still being ordered late as August 1941, (as per the Time/Life WWII series books)P-40's were limited- exporting British/Australian Kittyhawks only in 1941 (Netherlands, France, Norway could only buy Brewster F2's and P-39's from US, I'm not totally sure of that-but that whats the book said...)
So while I'm not in your or Mogami's technical league- still some room to debate the production program for 2.3 eh?
I have read in more than one place that several orders for "keels/hulls" were made in late 1930's by Congress without the funding appropriations for completion. (that says to me they were edging-but-hedging thier bets on the war- Euorpean or Pacific)
While I cant disagree about the production once the war began ( I should probably be more correct to say war was looming), several prototypes were revived that were discards/rejects from the drawing room floor... P-38's had that compressability dive problem, (Martin Caidin's P-38 Wing Tailed Devil)it was intially rejected by the US because of that... P-47 I think was in prototype-NO argument there. but NEW P-35's were still being ordered late as August 1941, (as per the Time/Life WWII series books)P-40's were limited- exporting British/Australian Kittyhawks only in 1941 (Netherlands, France, Norway could only buy Brewster F2's and P-39's from US, I'm not totally sure of that-but that whats the book said...)
So while I'm not in your or Mogami's technical league- still some room to debate the production program for 2.3 eh?
In 1940 the US laid down the following ships
BB60 Alabama Feb 1, 1940
BB61 Iowa June 27 1940
BB62 New Jersey Sept 16 1940
BB laid down prior to 1940 and before Dec 7th 1941 but not launched by Dec 7th 1941
BB.57,58,59,63,64
8BB's Japan has a total of 12 for the whole war the US had 8 under construction before Dec 7th not counting the recently launched BB 55, 56
CV Bunker Hill Sept 15th 1941
Essex Apr 28 1941
Intrepid Dec 1 1941
Yorktown (renamed during construction) Dec 1 1941
Lexington(renamed during construction)July 15th 1941
(note 5 fleet carriers laid before Dec7th 1941)
note these are dates keel was laid not funding authorized
CA's laid prior to Dec 7th 4
Japan saw the US building already underway and knew it could not keep up. With the war in Europe distracting the other powers the only real block was a US Navy that would in a few years hopelessly outnumber the IJN.
There is no scenario where Japan can build a fleet at the same pace as the US. Once the War actully began the US started builds that would more then triple Japans starting fleet before th war (even if every US ship then afloat were lost) Very few Japanese leaders could comprehend what they were getting into)
The Naval Shipyard in Philadelphia built several BB's that finished a year ahead of schedule. No other country in history ever built a BB ahead of schedule and under cost.
What this means in game terms is ...if there was no US Navy on Dec 7th 1941 by mid 1943 Japan would have been outnumbered, by the US Navy without any allied ships. This is the single largest reason for Japan going to war in 1941. They hoped by 1943 to have a defense ring capable of inflicting lossess to the US that would compell the Americans to talk some sort of settlement. The problem was Pearl Harbour so outraged America this was immpossible. Japan never thought it could win a war to the finish. The early Japanese Victory in Pac War is a good in game thing to allow Japan a game win it could never have achived in reality.
[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Mogami ]
BB60 Alabama Feb 1, 1940
BB61 Iowa June 27 1940
BB62 New Jersey Sept 16 1940
BB laid down prior to 1940 and before Dec 7th 1941 but not launched by Dec 7th 1941
BB.57,58,59,63,64
8BB's Japan has a total of 12 for the whole war the US had 8 under construction before Dec 7th not counting the recently launched BB 55, 56
CV Bunker Hill Sept 15th 1941
Essex Apr 28 1941
Intrepid Dec 1 1941
Yorktown (renamed during construction) Dec 1 1941
Lexington(renamed during construction)July 15th 1941
(note 5 fleet carriers laid before Dec7th 1941)
note these are dates keel was laid not funding authorized
CA's laid prior to Dec 7th 4
Japan saw the US building already underway and knew it could not keep up. With the war in Europe distracting the other powers the only real block was a US Navy that would in a few years hopelessly outnumber the IJN.
There is no scenario where Japan can build a fleet at the same pace as the US. Once the War actully began the US started builds that would more then triple Japans starting fleet before th war (even if every US ship then afloat were lost) Very few Japanese leaders could comprehend what they were getting into)
The Naval Shipyard in Philadelphia built several BB's that finished a year ahead of schedule. No other country in history ever built a BB ahead of schedule and under cost.
What this means in game terms is ...if there was no US Navy on Dec 7th 1941 by mid 1943 Japan would have been outnumbered, by the US Navy without any allied ships. This is the single largest reason for Japan going to war in 1941. They hoped by 1943 to have a defense ring capable of inflicting lossess to the US that would compell the Americans to talk some sort of settlement. The problem was Pearl Harbour so outraged America this was immpossible. Japan never thought it could win a war to the finish. The early Japanese Victory in Pac War is a good in game thing to allow Japan a game win it could never have achived in reality.
[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Mogami ]
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Originally posted by Major Tom:
All of the planning was in place to quickly change civilian production to military means. Also, there were aircraft like the P-38, P-47 and such in the late prototype stage in late 1941. They also had
Major Tom,
The F4U-1 was also in developement at the time of the P-38 and I think, had its first flight not long after it. It was deployed later because of its well documented ill handling, but shows the Navy was also looking ahead to the comming war.
Ringbolt
LtCom: "Sgt. Lee, is that a Navy
Cross I see you wearing?"
Sgt. Lee: "No Sir, it's three."
Cross I see you wearing?"
Sgt. Lee: "No Sir, it's three."
Mogami,
No argument there- I wasnt aware that ordering a hull and finishing the ship were two (or ten different things) before...I thought that laying a hull meant you bought a ship! VBG
Also apologies for mis titling the P-38 book by Martin Caidin (P-38 The TWIN tailed Devil!!!)
I had the pleasure of growing up across the river (NJ) from the Philly Navy Yard... (coinidentially the BB's you attributed to Philly Navy Yard were actually built in Camden NJ at New York Shipbuilding- some great photos are available too -mostly BB62 USS New Jersey)I made several trips to Philly to see ships there(thanks to my Dad's contacts when I was younger) It closed in early 90's, though several mothballed DD's & DE's were stored there for years afterward...
Oh well just to add my 2 cents to a good post!
Jim
No argument there- I wasnt aware that ordering a hull and finishing the ship were two (or ten different things) before...I thought that laying a hull meant you bought a ship! VBG
Also apologies for mis titling the P-38 book by Martin Caidin (P-38 The TWIN tailed Devil!!!)
I had the pleasure of growing up across the river (NJ) from the Philly Navy Yard... (coinidentially the BB's you attributed to Philly Navy Yard were actually built in Camden NJ at New York Shipbuilding- some great photos are available too -mostly BB62 USS New Jersey)I made several trips to Philly to see ships there(thanks to my Dad's contacts when I was younger) It closed in early 90's, though several mothballed DD's & DE's were stored there for years afterward...
Oh well just to add my 2 cents to a good post!
Jim
Hi, I did not name any ship built by Philly (I was stationed there as part of shipyard 86-87 during the service life extension program (SLEP) for the Independence and Kittyhawk. Philly built the New Jersy New York Ship building built the South Dakota
New York Naval Yard built the North Carolina.
but the post about the ships above was meant to show what Japan was facing in terms of other Navies in 1941. With so many US ships being built by a 'peaceful' US Japan would be hopelessly out numbered by 1944. That is why they went in 41 and hit the US rather then bypass. I cna't not find any info on your Navy aviator. The only person I can can think of in the 30's looking at routes in the Pacific was the head of Pan American Airlines but I don't recall his name (Juan Kippler or Kittle or something) who noticed that Midway/Wake/Guam made it possible for Transpacific (and thus global) air traffic. The airfields in the game all started out as Pan Am hotel/airfield/seaplane bases.
New York Naval Yard built the North Carolina.
but the post about the ships above was meant to show what Japan was facing in terms of other Navies in 1941. With so many US ships being built by a 'peaceful' US Japan would be hopelessly out numbered by 1944. That is why they went in 41 and hit the US rather then bypass. I cna't not find any info on your Navy aviator. The only person I can can think of in the 30's looking at routes in the Pacific was the head of Pan American Airlines but I don't recall his name (Juan Kippler or Kittle or something) who noticed that Midway/Wake/Guam made it possible for Transpacific (and thus global) air traffic. The airfields in the game all started out as Pan Am hotel/airfield/seaplane bases.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
The fact that the US or other countries were building a lot of ships wasn't realization of a war but rather the arms race build up at the time. I saw a great show on the History Channel about the battleships. It even said there was some concern in US and Britain that the arms race would put them at war with each other!
The arms race actually fostered the war by some accounts as everyone raced to outdo each other.
I'm not convinced that the US 'expected' war but by default, as the greatest industrial power, was in a good position to gear up.
The arms race actually fostered the war by some accounts as everyone raced to outdo each other.
I'm not convinced that the US 'expected' war but by default, as the greatest industrial power, was in a good position to gear up.
The XF4U-1 first flew in May 1940. Production was delayed partly to work on handling problems, but mostly because the Navy changed the requirements after the prorotype had flown - having watched and learned from the air war over Europe, the new specifications included armor, greatly increased firepower, and additional fuel. The F4U-1 weighed 35% more than the prototype, which did nothing to alleviate the handling issues. However, two USN squadrons did their carquals with F4Us in late 42 and early 43; and the British successfully operated "unsuitable" F4Us from CVEs. This seems to lend credence to the assertion that the reason the F4U was shore-bound until 1944 in US service had as much to do with logistics as handling.
Some days you're the windshield.
Some days you're the bug.
Some days you're the bug.
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Doug Olenick
- Posts: 88
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Not to add to your burden Major Tom, but one item that has always bugged me is when a TF decides to linger around an area for an extra turn.
This normally happens when I send in three Air TFs with say a stand off range of 1 or 2 with orders to return base. They make their attacks and then two of the three decide to leave and one stays. Now that one is usually low on planes and is the sole target for the surrounding airfields, which have been reinforced after the attacks.
I gather this has something to do with the aggresiveness level of the TF commander, but its still annoying.
This normally happens when I send in three Air TFs with say a stand off range of 1 or 2 with orders to return base. They make their attacks and then two of the three decide to leave and one stays. Now that one is usually low on planes and is the sole target for the surrounding airfields, which have been reinforced after the attacks.
I gather this has something to do with the aggresiveness level of the TF commander, but its still annoying.
Skeets, I doubt if it has as much to do with the aggressiveness of the TF commander as with TF prep points. If the TF that remains is the one that engaged in a lot of air combat, as you indicated by mentioning that the TF typically is the one low on aircraft, then it is also the TF that is probably lowest on prep points. It may not have had enough prep points left to complete the return to port move. :rolleyes:
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Doug Olenick
- Posts: 88
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The original rulebook had a section on how a TF accumulates PP and had another section on the airstrikes of AC TF and PP cost of various size airstrikes.
Another source of info is PWHINT, and excellent file which has a link in some earlier threads. It really emphasizes the importance of PP.
There is some discussion of PP in earlier threads on this forum. Browse back a ways. There is some uncertainty about whether or not TF accumulate unused PP from the previous week. Some think not.
In any case, TF acquire more PP at the start of each turn. All TF use up PP making actions, particularly fighting.
My best use, or abuse, of the PP system was in a battle at Attu in the winter. I was allied and sent in 4 SC TF against what I knew would be a Japanese SC TF with 3 BB, 4 CA, 4 CL, & 4 DD. My lowest numbered TF (moves first) consisted of about 50 PT boats. It ran into the Japanese SC TF, lost maybe 6 or 7 PT boats, scored a couple of insignificant taps with torpedoes, and bled the Japanese SC TF dry of PP. When my next TF hit, it scored SURPRISE! at the JAPANESE port (against a TF on reaction!). The Japs were really hurting after that, losing 100% of their force sunk by my 2nd and 3rd TFs to hit them. Although they dished out a lot of damage to my 2nd TF, nearly sinking a couple of old BB. That was a nasty mean abusive move which took full advantage of the PP system of PacWar. Maybe the next game won't allow such dastardly tricks!!!
Another source of info is PWHINT, and excellent file which has a link in some earlier threads. It really emphasizes the importance of PP.
There is some discussion of PP in earlier threads on this forum. Browse back a ways. There is some uncertainty about whether or not TF accumulate unused PP from the previous week. Some think not.
In any case, TF acquire more PP at the start of each turn. All TF use up PP making actions, particularly fighting.
My best use, or abuse, of the PP system was in a battle at Attu in the winter. I was allied and sent in 4 SC TF against what I knew would be a Japanese SC TF with 3 BB, 4 CA, 4 CL, & 4 DD. My lowest numbered TF (moves first) consisted of about 50 PT boats. It ran into the Japanese SC TF, lost maybe 6 or 7 PT boats, scored a couple of insignificant taps with torpedoes, and bled the Japanese SC TF dry of PP. When my next TF hit, it scored SURPRISE! at the JAPANESE port (against a TF on reaction!). The Japs were really hurting after that, losing 100% of their force sunk by my 2nd and 3rd TFs to hit them. Although they dished out a lot of damage to my 2nd TF, nearly sinking a couple of old BB. That was a nasty mean abusive move which took full advantage of the PP system of PacWar. Maybe the next game won't allow such dastardly tricks!!!
Warpup,
LOL!!!
One of my favorite IJN cheats exposed! Thats how I get favorable results from battling 'em early in the war. I make 2-3 DD TF's and a good battle group (2-3 BB, 2 CV, 1-2 CVE's 4-5CA's) then use the DD's baiting the battlegroups the USN sends to Solomons to rescue the Brits I'm harrassing near Australia. I do admit- sometimes I get buttwhippings too (mostly landbased airstrikes) from the other player if he suspects me of doing this...)
good post
Jim
LOL!!!
One of my favorite IJN cheats exposed! Thats how I get favorable results from battling 'em early in the war. I make 2-3 DD TF's and a good battle group (2-3 BB, 2 CV, 1-2 CVE's 4-5CA's) then use the DD's baiting the battlegroups the USN sends to Solomons to rescue the Brits I'm harrassing near Australia. I do admit- sometimes I get buttwhippings too (mostly landbased airstrikes) from the other player if he suspects me of doing this...)
good post
Jim
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Jeff Norton
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Blackhorse
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Jeremy Pritchard (ex- Major Tom) writes:
By the way, in the 2.3 version the Hermes has a fighter group. The ship is the equal to the Hosho. I had an interesting computer vs. computer test, where the AI sent the Hosho vs. the Hermes. The Hermes was the definite winner with the Hosho retreating in flames.
I'm among those salivating for your 2.3 release. Any prospective release date? Don't worry too much about the AI glitches -- sending U.K. merchantmen to Dacca, for instance. Not too much you can do with the AI. Just make it (more) playable for PBEM and a lot of us will be happy.
What happened to Major Tom? Did you retire, or get drummed out of the service?
By the way, in the 2.3 version the Hermes has a fighter group. The ship is the equal to the Hosho. I had an interesting computer vs. computer test, where the AI sent the Hosho vs. the Hermes. The Hermes was the definite winner with the Hosho retreating in flames.
I'm among those salivating for your 2.3 release. Any prospective release date? Don't worry too much about the AI glitches -- sending U.K. merchantmen to Dacca, for instance. Not too much you can do with the AI. Just make it (more) playable for PBEM and a lot of us will be happy.
What happened to Major Tom? Did you retire, or get drummed out of the service?
WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
I have a question I have not seen addressed here about the v2.3 patch. Will it use the standard map for the game? The one found in LargeSlowTarget's modified ob41 is much more accurrate and makes it much more fun to play the
British in the CBI theatre. I also like the idea expressed by someone here that a base be setup in India that would represent the actual British factories similar to the US East Coast base.
Regard's
PacWarrior
British in the CBI theatre. I also like the idea expressed by someone here that a base be setup in India that would represent the actual British factories similar to the US East Coast base.
Regard's
PacWarrior
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LargeSlowTarget
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Granfali_Original
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