I got a political question for the WWII experts.

[Lebatron]

What do you think Spain would have done if the allies decided the D-day landing should be in Portugal? I ask because its for my mod Franco's Alliance. Link here:Franco's Alliance and Strait Deal
Unless I'm convinced otherwise, I'm going to lean toward leaving Spain frozen. Franco was paralyzed by fear of U.S. power. That’s why he never jumped on board the Axis alliance. He would only have joined when things looked good for the Axis. I have that modeled in Franco's Alliance. Hopefully it’s accurate. Anyway in Strait Deal or Franco's Alliance I think Spain should do nothing if Portugal falls. Why? Because this is not a positive event for the Axis. Franco would become more reluctant to join the Axis since he wouldn't want another war shattering his country. He would have realized that the WA's are going to go through his country whether he liked it or not. So would he join the Axis at the last minute? Probably not. More realistically he would have allowed the WA's to pass through his country. Unfortunately WAW can't simulate that, so the WA's would be forced to fight their way through the Spanish forces.

[Svend Karlson]

Honestly Lebatron, I think Franco would have been bewildered by the Allied choice of invading one neutral nation, that had borders only with another neutral nation, that had borders only with an occupied region (& Allied territory) that was hundreds & hundreds of miles away from anywhere & anything important to the Axis war effort. That would have been an utterly senseless decision by the Allies & they could not hope to supply an army via that route. Spanish terrain & infrastructure is not exactly condusive to easy logistics.

Perhaps I am not understanding the question therefore, but you are talking about a hypothetical that really only makes sense in-game. IRL unless Portugal & Spain were in the Axis it would not have even been an option on the radar so to speak.

Neither is it so easy to say that the reason Franco didn't join the Axis was due to fear of the US. His country was ruined by the years of civil war & lacked the capacity for another major war even if one had been desired. Also what could Franco gain? Gibraltar maybe, but anything else? There was no nearby land to gobble up unlike that which was available for Germany, Italy & Japan. Ultimately Franco had a lot more to gain by staying neutral than joining either the Axis or the Allies.

[tiredoftryingnames]

I think the allies invading neutrals is absurd. I like flexibility in a game, but allowing the western allies this option is just beyond reason. Russia, yeah, they did invade Finland and Poland. But the first time I saw the Allies AI land in portugual i couldn't believe it. I know the game has "penalties" built in but obviously the AI doesn't care as it does it every game I play as Germany. I've never seen the AI conduct an invasion on France. It always attacks a neutral country. That's the democratic way to fight oppression. [8D]

[Lebatron]

Thanks for the comments but neither was really on the mark. Perhaps I need to clarify what I'm asking. I still want to ask the same question but I need a response with game mechanics in mind. Specifically how it would relate to unfreezing events. In my mod Franco's Alliance, Spain is a frozen ally of Germany. She can only become unfrozen by Germany if the Axis take London, Moscow, or Gibraltar. That’s how it stands now, but some request that Portugal be added as an unfreeze event. So in game, not real life, if the allies took Portugal do you think that should automatically make the Spanish unfreeze? As I said above, I just don't think that Spain would join the Axis if Portugal fell to the allies. The way I have it now in Franco's Alliance, steers the WA's into a more realistic path. They have no reason to invade Portugal now, since they are not liberating anything there. So I see little need to add further penalty for doing so.

[tiredoftryingnames]

Sorry. I wasn't really attempting to answer your question. I was venting on the subject within the game that has caused your question. To me you shouldn't have to worry about the Allies invading neutrals.

But I'll give it a stab. Franco never joined the Axis but the Spanish Intelligence community provided information to the Germans. I've read on several accounts where Allied ship movements spotted by the Spanish was passed to the Germans. From what I've read Franco was in Hitler's corner, just stayed neutral after just fighting their civil war. If Portugal was invaded by the Allies I'm confident that Franco would join the Axis. Staying neutral was to keep from getting invaded. If his country was the next step for the Allies on their way to occupied France anyway, why wouldn't he join the Axis to get German troops moved into his country for added defense? Just my opinion based on ahistorical events. You can't go wrong either way though unless someone produces Franco's grandkids as character witnesses.

[Svend Karlson]

It's only conjecture of course, but I would go in the other direction from tiredoftryingnames. Franco was an extremely savvy leader who made use of Italian & German aid for his cause but was often simultaneously reluctant & even resentful of their involvement.

Although there may have been something of a shared ideology (although this point is debatable - Mussolini derided National Socialism for instance) there was not any great personal friendship at all between Franco & Hitler or Mussolini. Indeed I believe Hitler once expressed a preference for a visit to the dentist (pre-anaethetic) rather than spending time with Franco.

So I believe that Franco would have quickly realised how disadvantageous it would be to explicitly oppose the Allies, & would have became resolutely neutral if not actually Allied. He had no purpose & no loyalties to persuade him to fight against a superior military force.

[tiredoftryingnames]

Well I didn't mean they liked each other on a personal level. [:D] I just know that if Spain was leaning towards the Allies they wouldn't have provided the Germans with intelligence about ship movements. But the idea I got from him was that the Allies are invading neutrals what would he do. I don't think he can remain neutral if the Allies are taking that away. But like you said it's all conjecture. Who knows what would happen because the Allies didn't overrun neutrals for bases.

[Wayllander]

I think the answer would depend on who Franco thought was winning the war.

--way

[Forwarn45]

think the answer would depend on who Franco thought was winning the war.

--way

I agree with Wayllander. Spain actually sent a division of "volunteers" (the Blue division) to the Eastern Front to help out against the Soviets. It was recalled well before the end of the war. Impossible to model of course. My thought would be that Franco would have joined the Axis if threatened by the British early in the war - i.e., by invasion of Portugal. He might not have by the time the Americans were in.

On second thought - is there a way to have a country (Spain) unfreeze if something is in Allied hands (Portugal) but something else is in Axis hands (to signify the Axis is still doing OK in the war)?

[Forwarn45]

I found the following link, which I think is very helpful to the questions raised about Spain's policies and involvement. I can't vouch for all the facts, but it comports with what I know about WWII history (including info. about the Blue division). [8D]

http://countrystudies.us/spain/24.htm

[Lebatron]

After reading that link and these posts I think its best that I leave things as is in Franco's Alliance. By the time this ahistorical D-day would take place, Spain is already distancing themselves from the Axis. Franco probably would have let the WA's pass though his country rather than ask for German assistant. Perhaps even join the allies at that point. But these things really can't be modeled to be fair for either side. If I let Spain unfreeze when Portugal fell then the Germans could reinforce it more. That’s a very different outcome than Franco allowing the WA's free passage. So leaving Spain Frozen so the allies can go through them easier appears to be the best solution. But I'm not saying that’s how things would play out in my mod. Because realistically if Spain was still frozen its in the allies best interest to keep it that way, and go for a traditional D-day. I think this request to have Spain unfreeze is based on their experience in the stock game. If they tried my mod they would see that Portugal is not so important anymore. It probably would never get invaded, making this request pointless.

To answer Forwarn's question "On second thought - is there a way to have a country (Spain) unfreeze if something is in Allied hands (Portugal) but something else is in Axis hands (to signify the Axis is still doing OK in the war)?"

Yes that is possible. In my mod Franco’s Alliance, Spain starts off frozen. This prevents Germany from using Spain to take Gibraltar. Spain will stay frozen unless the Axis prove they are doing well. She will unfreeze if London, Moscow, or Gibraltar falls. This whole thread has been about adding or not adding Portugal to that list of events.

[Forwarn45]

I'm glad my earlier comments were helpful. [8D] Just wanted to mention that I had wondered whether it would be possible to add in a separate condition to unfreeze Spain if the allies take Portugal and Germany is doing OK (for example, Germany still holds North Africa) but not well enough to otherwise trigger outright intervention (by taking London, Moscow, Gibraltar). I have a feeling this can't be done but am not sure. It sounds like you have put in a lot of thought towards your mod, Lebatron.

[Joel Billings]

I think unfreezing Spain if Portugal is attacked is possible. Similar things are done with Russia and Turkey et al.

[Autoset]

Interesting discussion.

I'm firmly in the "unfreeze" camp. Many good points above, including Waylander and Forwarn45's "depends" scenario. Though I disagree with Svend, I think he makes some interesting points.

A few things to add:

1. IMHO the Spanish were not likely to go Allied.

A. In fact, according to the recent Pulitzer Prize winning Army at Dawn, the Allied High Command had a bad case of paranoia regarding Spain's entry into the war on the side of the Axis as late as March, 1943 while the Allied invasion of North Africa was underway. (p.s. Highly recommend this book. Not sure if it has been translated into other languages.) Tiredoftryingnames and others make similar points regarding the closeness of Spanish/German relations.

B. Franco won the Spanish Civil War largely (not exclusively) because of German and Italian aid. It is true that Hitler did not enjoy Franco's company, especially after Franco decided not to take out Gibralta, but Franco had much more in common with Hitler than Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin. In the crunch, to whom would Franco turn? Stalin or that Socialist Roosevelt?

2. Although the Spanish were extremely war weary from their bloody civil war, an Allied invasion of Portugal would have only one purpose: an Allied attack on Fortress Europa through Spain. (Can there be any other reason???) Either Spain goes Allied to save its hide (would Franco take the chance that the Allies would allow him to stay in power?) or it goes Axis to allow the Germans to reinforce their position. Either way, I do not think Franco, as wiley as he was, would stay neutral.

4. What aids in GGWaW playability? Assuming that Spain is an inactive ally of Germany and an Allied invasion of Portugal, if you allowed the Spanish to unfreeze it would nudge - if not steer - games toward a more historical encounter. That is to say, the Allies would not attack neutral Portugal as often, which we all agree is a historically unlikely event.

The only time I could imagine that Spain would go Allied or stay neutral under an invasion of Portugal would be if Spain were isolated (Western and Southern France and Gibralta were under Allied control) or the Allies were nearly in complete control of the continent. In which case I completely agree with Svend: Franco would cave.

(But also: Both conditions would make an attack on Portugal strategically meaningless.)

This is just an opinion.

Thanks for your efforts Lebatron.

-Autoset

p.s. Tiredoftryingnames, the reason I chose Autoset as my screen name was b/c it was one of two choices typed on the bottom of my computer monitor. The other? "OSD."

[Autoset]

Fun discussion...can't...stop...typing.

Someone mentioned this above: The one thing that Spain really, really wanted, even today, was/is Gibralta. (I read in the newspaper a couple month ago that some in the Spanish government want to revisit this issue.)

Outside of the Portugal issue, I think that Spain should unfreeze if England is captured. Opens the door for Spanish reconquest of Gibralta.

[SeaMonkey]

I think Autoset has it right, although this is all hypothetical. My impression after reading about the discussions of General Canaris and Franco is that Spain would only enter the Nazi camp if the UK capitulated, ie. the Gibraltar prize, therefor Spain should be frozen as a potential Axis partner.

Any custom feature that inhibits the Allied invasion of Portugal should be incorporated, as this was never on the Allied scopes, the operational intracacies were overwhelming.

This is a "what if" game and of course anything viable should not be prohibited, but the likelihood of the Spanish inclusion into the Axis alliance is farfetched. That is not to say that Franco was not paranoid or concerned about a possible invasion by German forces. As I recollect, it was only after G.Canaris(Franco's brother in law) assured him of the future German intentions did he become more belligerent at Hitler's coersive efforts to get Spain to join and hence that historical meeting and the subsequent direction of the war in this theater.

[Lebatron]

To Autoset: Good points. And Spain does unfreeze if London falls. You must have missed that in the readme and above. Anyway, I'd like to comment on this: "Either Spain goes Allied to save its hide (would Franco take the chance that the Allies would allow him to stay in power?)"

When foreign leaders cooperate with the US and the British they rarely, if ever, get removed from power. If Franco was mostly interested in saving his skin and staying in power, I think he would have let the allies through without resistance. But of coarse that’s only assuming it looks like the allies are going to win in the end. Like Wayllander said it all depends on the big picture. If Germany's got Russia conquered and Japan kicked ass, then I think Spain would unfreeze, thus allowing the Germans to reinforce. But modeling complicated unfreeze conditions like that would hardly pay off. I'm not going to write up a long string of what-if conditions that somehow gauge how each side is doing. Besides its best for the game to have simple, easy to remember, trigger events. Wouldn't everyone at least agree on that?

Right now Spain has 3 trigger events, and may increase to 4 if I add Portugal as an event. The allies have little reason to invade Portugal now, but if more deterrent is needed, I can add the threat that it will unfreeze Spain also. I need some outside playtesting to determine this. I've done about all I can with solo play. When you play against yourself there are no surprises.

[Autoset]

ORIGINAL: Lebatron
When foreign leaders cooperate with the US and the British they rarely, if ever, get removed from power.

Lebatron,

Just to add a little friendly debate...

I have to call you on this statement. The counter-examples would fill the screen. If you're an American, you can think of a few native American leaders whose fate was sealed despite their cooperation with the US Government. (How did we get those Hawaiian Islands again?) The British have a long history of using indigenous leaders for their own profit and then spitting them out.

But I know, this is not really your point.

You are referring to Western Countries, such as Spain and specifically, from Franco's prospective.

My point is this: Would Franco chance that Allies would leave him in power? The British and Americans are/were democracies. Many US and Americans - and not just Communists - volunteered to fight for the Republicans against Franco. The Soviets actively supplied the Republicans.

If Franco went with the Allies and allowed them to house hundreds of thousands of troops and support personel for the invasion of Southern France, his hold on power would be weakened. What would keep the Allies from subverting Franco's power, incidentally or intentionally? Afterall, Franco was a fascist.

I totally agree that your programming should not add complicated triggers to the game. But if we agree that Spain should be an inactive member of the Axis, I would argue that as soon as an Allied troop set foot in Portugal, the Spanish would go to war.

I know that the issue is more complicated (as well covered pro and against by others above), but I think this is a good blend of simplicity and reality.

That said, you can keep it as you like and I will still play and enjoy your fine work. (It is hard to disparage the farmer with a mouthful of corn.) This issue is just a small piece of the wonderful pie.

Unless I have been unclear, I will leave this debate to others. Thanks for your time.

-Autoset

p.s. I would like to play someone using your mod when I get back from vacation.

[Lebatron]

Since it can't hurt to steer the WA's more toward France, I have decided to go ahead and make Portugal another unfreeze event. It’s a good thing I did, because I noticed a small bug. Anyway it will be fixed in V1.1 of Franco's Alliance. Spain will now unfreeze IF Germany takes: London, Moscow, or Gibraltar. Also Spain will unfreeze if the WA's attack Portugal or any of Spain's lands.

I noticed something peculiar when testing. If you attacked Portugal by transport first and got destroyed by op-fire, Spain would not unfreeze. But if you attacked with air first, as you should, things worked fine. What I discovered was that op-fire does not trigger events like a standard attack would. There is nothing I can do about it. The developers would have to fix that. But it’s not much of an issue, because it would be stupid not to take out the artillery with air before the amphibious assault. Still it would be nice to see op-fire unlock things.

[Wayllander]

Certainly Franco was much more aligned ideologically with the Germans. But one most look at the risk vs reward of Spain's involvement. Joining the losing side meant he would very possibily lose everything, and joining the winning side had very little reward. So it was in his best interest to stay out of it.

If the Allies hit Portugal in say 44, I would bet Franco would try to work a deal to get some type of concession for cooperation rather then resist.

-way