A little help please...

[Mziln]

See: wifchart.pdf/US Entry Action/NOTES FOR US ENTRY ACTIONS:

3. The USA also picks 1 extra chit a turn for each action (except conquests by surrender). It must go into the marked entry pool.

[&:] Is this Conquest by Surrender? [&:]

when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it. If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor country to the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor countries capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next closest, and so on.

If every eligible major power declines, the minor country (and all its controlled minor countries and territories) is immediately conquered by the attacking major power (see Conquest).

There is no mention of "Conquest by Surrender" in the RaW.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mziln
See: wifchart.pdf/US Entry Action/NOTES FOR US ENTRY ACTIONS:

3. The USA also picks 1 extra chit a turn for each action (except conquests by surrender). It must go into the marked entry pool.

[&:] Is this Conquest by Surrender? [&:]

when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it. If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor country to the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor countries capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next closest, and so on.

If every eligible major power declines, the minor country (and all its controlled minor countries and territories) is immediately conquered by the attacking major power (see Conquest).

There is no mention of "Conquest by Surrender" in the RaW.

The note you refer to applies to Japan conquering China and the Axis conquering United Kingdom. Section 13.7.6 of the rules describes when a major power can surrender. Putting these two together answers what note #3 is about. I don't know if it applies to the minor countries that never get a controling power. I would guess not.

[Mziln]

4. China conquered (Ja) 3
11. Japan declares war on the USA (Ja) 3
12. Germany or Italy or both declare war on USA or China (Ge/It) 3 & 6
16. Axis conquers United Kingdom (Ge/It) 3
16. Axis conquers United Kingdom (Ge/It) 3
33. Japan declares war on the CW, France or Netherlands (Ja) 3 & 5

If it is true...

Then only if Japan declared war on the Netherlands (a Minor Country).
And the Netherlands didn't receive a controlling Major Power.
Then the extra chit would not become available.
The Netherlands would have surrendered and become subject to the Total Conquest rules.

Basicly if the CW didn't care enough about its trade agreement with the Netherlands then the USA wouldn't either.

If it is false...

Would it mean that a extra chit would be drawn each turn until the Major Power or Minor Country was Totaly Conqured?

If so...

4. China Conquest (Ja) 3 Should read 4. Incomplete Conquest of China (Ja) 3

Basicly this would mean the USA would be increasingly concerned over the developing world situation. Untill the situation had been resolved by a Axis victory.

[Froonp]

I do not always catch up everything that you mean Mzlin, I'm sorry, English not being my mother tongue, some subtilities must escape me.

However, I wanted to express 2 things :

1. When an extra chit is to be drawn each turn, it is drawn each turn indefinitely, that is, without the extra drawing stopping.

2. For me, the footnote (3) applies whenever to China or to the Netherlands, as well as to any country affected by this footnote. If they surrender of their own will because more than half their factories are enemy controlled, or if they surrender because no major power wants to align them is not relevant. As a side note, it would astonish me completely if the CW forgot to align the Netherlands when they are declared the war on by the Axis.

Best Regards

Patrice

[Cheesehead]

When the USA draws an extra chit a turn for each action, does that mean that it also makes an extra roll? For example:

Japan DOW CW and the Netherlands. Next turn Japan captures Lan Chow. The US rolls a 4 for the Entry Action and draws one chit. Does it automatically get an extra chit or does it roll for that extra chit? If it rolled a 5 on the Entry action, does it still get an extra chit? At the end of the turn, during US Entry phase, does the US draw one chit or two?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

When the USA draws an extra chit a turn for each action, does that mean that it also makes an extra roll? For example:

The USA doesn't draw a chit a turn for each action.
The USA draws an extra chit each turn, during the US Entry phase.

Japan DOW CW and the Netherlands. Next turn Japan captures Lan Chow. The US rolls a 4 for the Entry Action and draws one chit. Does it automatically get an extra chit

No.

or does it roll for that extra chit?

No neither.

If it rolled a 5 on the Entry action, does it still get an extra chit?

No neither.

At the end of the turn, during US Entry phase, does the US draw one chit or two?

Two, if the US normaly should draw one.
If the USA should normaly draw 2, they draw 3, etc...

[Cheesehead]

Thanks Patrice.

That's what I thought, but sometimes when you look too closely at a rule you start seeing things that aren't there.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I do not always catch up everything that you mean Mzlin, I'm sorry, English not being my mother tongue, some subtilities must escape me.

However, I wanted to express 2 things :

1. When an extra chit is to be drawn each turn, it is drawn each turn indefinitely, that is, without the extra drawing stopping.

2. For me, the footnote (3) applies whenever to China or to the Netherlands, as well as to any country affected by this footnote. If they surrender of their own will because more than half their factories are enemy controlled, or if they surrender because no major power wants to align them is not relevant. As a side note, it would astonish me completely if the CW forgot to align the Netherlands when they are declared the war on by the Axis.

Best Regards

Patrice

I will try to keep it simple. [:)]

What could happen:

(1) Japan could make a DoW against the Netherlands.
.....No one will align the Netherlands. The Netherlands surrender there would be no chit.

(2) Japan could make a DoW against the Netherlands.
.....France and the Commonwealth are at war with Germany.
.....France or the Commonwealth align the Netherlands or Germany makes a DoW with the Netherlands.
.....The Netherlands is now at war with Germany.
.....When the Netherlands suffer "Complete Conquest" by Germany and the chits stop.
.....Japan will not be at war with France or the Commonwealth.

(3) The other chits stop as the other Major Powers suffer "Complete Conquest".

[Cheesehead]

2. For me, the footnote (3) applies whenever to China or to the Netherlands, as well as to any country affected by this footnote. If they surrender of their own will because more than half their factories are enemy controlled

In my current game Japan is hammering China quite effectively. My Axis opponent has been telling me that he will capture all but one Chinese city in order to prostrate China but not conquer it. Can he do this without USE penalty. If I surrender I assume I get the (35) USE chit draw but not the extra chit each turn. Is this correct?

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

2. For me, the footnote (3) applies whenever to China or to the Netherlands, as well as to any country affected by this footnote. If they surrender of their own will because more than half their factories are enemy controlled

In my current game Japan is hammering China quite effectively. My Axis opponent has been telling me that he will capture all but one Chinese city in order to prostrate China but not conquer it. Can he do this without USE penalty. If I surrender I assume I get the (35) USE chit draw but not the extra chit each turn. Is this correct?

13.7.1 Conquest

Home Countries other than Italy

To conquer any other home country, you must control its capital plus every printed factory hex in that home country. You do not need to control a hex that only contains factories that were moved, or built, there.

If more than one major power from the same side controls the capital and printed factories in a home country, the major power with the greatest influence in that home country is the conqueror.

he player with the greatest influence is whoever (when both sides are equal go to the next condition):
1. Controls most factories in the home country (with the capital counting as an additional 3 factories for this calculation).
2. Has the highest garrison value (see Option 46: Partisans) in the home country.
3. Occupied the home country’s last factory or capital city.

Incomplete Conquest (see this section for details)

Merely conquering a major power or minor country doesn’t mean it is out of the game. That only happens when it is completely conquered (see below). Until then, it fights on with its remaining units.

Complete Conquest

When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. Thereafter, it is at peace with everyone it was at war with.


And don't forget...

10. Japan occupies Chinese city (Japan 4) ~ each time a Japanese controlled land unit
.....occupies (or reoccupies) a Chinese controlled city in China, there is the possibility of an
.....outrage like the rape of Nanking occurring, an atrocity that the USA public finds out
.....about. You do not roll for cities controlled by the Japanese as a result of a Chinese
.....surrender.

[Froonp]

In my current game Japan is hammering China quite effectively. My Axis opponent has been telling me that he will capture all but one Chinese city in order to prostrate China but not conquer it. Can he do this without USE penalty. If I surrender I assume I get the (35) USE chit draw but not the extra chit each turn. Is this correct?

You are correct.
I believe I as wrong in my previous post. You get the extra chit, except if the country is conquered because it has surrendered.

Edit --> Oh, in fact, I just re read what I wrote, and I was not so much wrong. By the 2) I wrote in Post #4 of this thread, I meant that the footnote (3) (stating that you did not draw an extra chit) was valid if the country surrendered, whatever the cause of the surrender.

[Froonp]

In my current game Japan is hammering China quite effectively. My Axis opponent has been telling me that he will capture all but one Chinese city in order to prostrate China but not conquer it. Can he do this without USE penalty.

Yes he can, but you can also surrender.

If I surrender I assume I get the (35) USE chit draw but not the extra chit each turn. Is this correct?

Don't forget also an enormous consequence of China Surrender :
Japan will then no longer be at war with any major power, so Japan is now restrain to only choose Combined Impulses until at war with another major power.

Secondely, the USA will have an easier time declaring war to Japan (USA gets a bonus declaring war to Japan if China conquered).

[doctormm]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

4. China conquered (Ja) 3
11. Japan declares war on the USA (Ja) 3
12. Germany or Italy or both declare war on USA or China (Ge/It) 3 & 6
16. Axis conquers United Kingdom (Ge/It) 3
33. Japan declares war on the CW, France or Netherlands (Ja) 3 & 5

If it is true...

Then only if Japan declared war on the Netherlands (a Minor Country).
And the Netherlands didn't receive a controlling Major Power.
Then the extra chit would not become available.
The Netherlands would have surrendered and become subject to the Total Conquest rules.

Basicly if the CW didn't care enough about its trade agreement with the Netherlands then the USA wouldn't either.

Note 3 merely states that you get an extra chit, unless the chit is from a Conquest that came as a result of a surrender (i.e., "Conquest by surrender"). That's numbers 4 and 16, IF they surrender (in other words, pretty much only applies to number 4, 'cus why would the UK surrender?). The extra chits from declarations of war can't be negated by the DoW somehow resulting in an abandoned minor surrendering, because the chit is for the DoW, not the conquest.

[Greyshaft]

On the subject of chit draws, is it possible for the Axis players to see a summation of the USA Entry table status eg

given that the following (say) six events have occured <list> and the average chit draw is 'x' then there is a 37% chance that the USA can declare war on the axis next turn'

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

On the subject of chit draws, is it possible for the Axis players to see a summation of the USA Entry table status eg

given that the following (say) six events have occured <list> and the average chit draw is 'x' then there is a 37% chance that the USA can declare war on the axis next turn'

I like it.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: doctormm

ORIGINAL: Mziln

4. China conquered (Ja) 3
11. Japan declares war on the USA (Ja) 3
12. Germany or Italy or both declare war on USA or China (Ge/It) 3 & 6
16. Axis conquers United Kingdom (Ge/It) 3
33. Japan declares war on the CW, France or Netherlands (Ja) 3 & 5

If it is true...

Then only if Japan declared war on the Netherlands (a Minor Country).
And the Netherlands didn't receive a controlling Major Power.
Then the extra chit would not become available.
The Netherlands would have surrendered and become subject to the Total Conquest rules.

Basicly if the CW didn't care enough about its trade agreement with the Netherlands then the USA wouldn't either.

Note 3 merely states that you get an extra chit, unless the chit is from a Conquest that came as a result of a surrender (i.e., "Conquest by surrender"). That's numbers 4 and 16, IF they surrender (in other words, pretty much only applies to number 4, 'cus why would the UK surrender?). The extra chits from declarations of war can't be negated by the DoW somehow resulting in an abandoned minor surrendering, because the chit is for the DoW, not the conquest.

Ahhh yes, Rule 13.7.6 Surrender

But on the other hand in the Beta a message appears after Germany declares war on Poland.

"Align with Poland [Commonwealth]? If you do not Poland will automaticly surrender."

Now, if the Beta was following the RaW then 33 would be included.


Which shows why there is confusion over the rule.

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

On the subject of chit draws, is it possible for the Axis players to see a summation of the USA Entry table status eg

given that the following (say) six events have occured <list> and the average chit draw is 'x' then there is a 37% chance that the USA can declare war on the axis next turn'

Given as...

11. Japan declares war on the USA (Ja) 3
12. Germany or Italy or both declare war on USA or China (Ge/It) 3 & 6

Maybe a 37% chance that the USA can declare war on Germany/Italy.

[Froonp]

Ahhh yes, Rule 13.7.6 Surrender

But on the other hand in the Beta a message appears after Germany declares war on Poland.

"Align with Poland [Commonwealth]? If you do not Poland will automaticly surrender."

Now, if the Beta was following the RaW then 33 would be included.


Which shows why there is confusion over the rule.

The beta was not finished and didn't have every rule of WiF FE programmed. I seem to remember that Surrender was not yet done.

[Mziln]

I like your plan Patrice. The chits end when the major power or minor country is compleatly conqured. This works for all six actions. Chinas chits would start when Incompleatly conqured.

If false why put it on all six?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

I like your plan Patrice. The chits end when the major power or minor country is compleatly conqured. This works for all six actions. Chinas chits would start when Incompleatly conqured.

If not true why put it on all six.

My plan ???? [&:] [&:] [&:]
Which Plan ???
The Extra Chits should never "end" except when the USA goes to war [:-] [:-], and the Chits for China starts when China is conquered, either completely or incompletely. By the way, how can China be conquered incompletely ? To be conquered incompletely, you have to have 1 or more aligned minor still unconquered, and as far as I know China as no Aligned minor.

[Mziln]

I missunderstood you [:D]

I am tired from work and read "indefinitely" as "immediately".

Incomplete conquest could occur if the Axis declared war on a neutral minor country and no one else aligned them but China.

9.7 Control of minor countries

Poland may only align with the Commonwealth when Germany makes her compulsory declaration of war.

If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country on the American map, it may only align with the USA.

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it. If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor country to the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor countries capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next closest, and so on.

Your plan or post on 8/16/2005 10:24:19 AM

You define "Except conquest by surrender" as Rule 13.7.6 Surrender [&:]