Alternative Barbarossa plans

[Silvanski]

I'm always in for alternative strategies... That's the fun of WIR, try out several "What if?" strategies...

Have a look at this thread in the Axis history forum

The writer did an outstanding job in creating this, complete with maps...
It's all about an alternate Barbarossa plan with the weight of the thrust in the south and going after Stalingrad first... Leningrad and Moscow will be finished off in 1942
I don't know how well this will work in WIR, as Moscow in 1941 is of the utmost importance.

In combination with WIR forum member "poopyhead"s Luftwaffe directive
"use the He 111 and Ju 88 squadrons to bomb the Caucasus into ruin. This still leaves the Stukas and Do 17s for tactical support of the panzers" well worth a try ...[8D]

[Rasputitsa]

Who will know how things would have worked out with a different plan for Barbarossa, however it is clear that the July 1941 plan failed because there was no agreement between Hitler and the German Generals over what should happen after the first battles on the frontier. Hitler, as stated in his original Directive, wanted to capture Leningrad and the Ukraine, then move on Moscow. The Generals wanted to go straight to Moscow. This conflict caused a delay in August at Smolensk and when Hitler got his way the Panzer Groups were sent off in different directions, as objectives were changed. By the end of the 1941 campaign, the Germans had failed to win any of the main targets (Leningrad, Moscow, or Stalingrad). The success of Blitzkrieg requires the concentration of force ( Guderian always said this ), Hitler's interventions resulted in force being spread all over the USSR.

I favour the early planning by General Marks (Plan Otto), which has a more equal division of Panzer forces between Centre and South, each gets 2 Panzer Armies. This makes Army Group South strong enough to cature Kiev, without diverting forces from the Centre. Each attack can use its 2 Panzer Armies to achieve encirclements (Historically Army Group South with only 1 PZ Army was operating one handed and Guderian's PZ Army was directed 200 miles away from Moscow to help). Using Plan Otto, Centre and South can converge after passing the marshes and concentrate an attack on Moscow. Each can protect the other's flank and concentrate together in a massive attack, as Blitzkrieg was intended. With Moscow captured, Leningrad will probably fall. The rest comes later. By concentrating on more limited objectives you can at least ensure that you win something. Historically the Germans sat outside the Moscow and Leningrad, in the snow, while the Russians fed fresh troops through Moscow with good rail connections. How different would it have been if the Germans in Moscow had been able to push forces out on the radiating rail lines, while the Russians struggled around front in the snow.

I have tried these options and Plan Otto works in WIR, admittedly against the AI. It has been commented before that the AI is limited, which it is, but then so where Russians in 1941. The main problem the Germans face is distance, time and supply, which WIR does very well[:)].

[Poopyhead]

Thanks for the plug Silvanski.[:D] Good gaming!

[Silvanski]

You're welcome[;)]

I'm gonna try this operational plan this weekend against the AI.

[Poopyhead]

It cripples the AI. I tried it playing both sides and I was unable to counter it. The Russian airforce is inadequate at defending the oil wells, even if you just put as much as possible in Baku. This really made the blitzkrieg on Moscow/Gorkii click, though. Viel Spass!

[Silvanski]

I'm trying out this alternative strategy against the AI.
Here is the frontline at the start of Oct.5 1941 (first week with snow)
I followed the advance paths as accurate as possible.
AG North has reached it's stop line and 18 and 16 are entrenching. 4Pz has been withdrawn and placed in Velikye Luki and Vitebsk to act as a mobile reserve.
2 has been called in to bridge the gap between 9 and 4 which are also entrenching. 3Pz had trouble breaking out from Smolensk and it's role in the drive on Voronezh and Stalingrad was taken over by 2Pz, which was very successful in the battle for Kiev.
Therefor 3 Pz will be held in reserve in Gomel during the winter

The axis Leningrad-Smolensk-Orel will go in the defensive.

In the south the objectives have not been reached. For those who'll have read the operational plan on the link, Stalingrad is the main objective for the 1941 invasion.
6 and 2Pz (I put the latter under AG South command) have been advancing towards Voronezh but were met with stiff resistance. (the bulge was resolved by Oct.12 and the city is completely surrounded -no more movement will be made as the first snow has turned into mud) The panzers were supposed to move along the north bank of the Don towards Stalingrad and meet up with 1Pz coming from Rostov.
BTW, 11 received two Pz corps made up of Slovakian, Italian, Romanian and Hungarian tractors which proved very eficient in clearing up south Ukraine and the advance to Rostov. 11 will move to the Crimea later on where 4Rom is keeping an eye on the Kerch Strait and Sevastopol.

The Luftwaffe has been having a free hand so far. The only noteworthy appearance of the Red Airforce was in the Leningrad sector but the Finnish airforce, with its mixed batch of fighters and an additional gruppe of Luftwaffe Ju88's dealt out harsh blows on the Soviet airfields.
Note that the Finns didn't take part in the 1941 offensive. A couple of Wehrmacht divisions have arrived for inclusion in Finnish corps and are being readied for the 1942 attack on Leningrad.

During the advance in the Ukraine, 3Rom and 4Rom received Luftwaffe gruppen of He111's and have been making successful sorties on the Caucasian oilfields and Stalingrad industry.
As far as production and upgrading goes, I switched everything to manual, building lots of PzKpfwIII's and keeping JpzI and StuGIIIB in production in order to get enough replacements.
More advanced tanks will go into production during the winter.
Bf109's of Luftwaffe gruppen will gradually be replaced with FW190's so the older fighter types can be used to get rid of the mixed fighters.

The Italy/Africa front received a couple of full strength divisions and is being monitored throughout. A 3600-1000 ratio looks healthy and there's room for more reinforcements.

What strategy for 1942 is concerned... I'm a bit in limbo as what to do now...
AG North and Central will be deeply entrenched soon. They might be able to withstand any Soviet counterattack.
AG South is still 350-400 Miles from Stalingrad. It's getting quite risky to advance further as my corps will be turned into (deep freeze) piecemeal during the first blizzards.

Plans for the 1942 campaign as outlined in the link will need to be overhauled.
The ambitious strikes -first the Caucasus and Leningrad, and subsequently the grand finale in and around Moscow and Gorki- don't seem to be possible any longer if Stalingrad has not been secured in 1941.
On the other hand, Rostov has already been reached, which avoids the need for the double jump made in Fall Blau.

Oct.12 1941 now with rain... It's best not to move too many units...
That'll give me time to come up with some ideas...
I'll limit myself to small local offensives in order to secure Voronezh (surrounded as you've read) and strongpoints around the Don and Donets and await the arrival of springtime.

I'm anxiously awaiting the outcome of General Winter though...


Losses after Oct.5 1941 turn

[font="Courier New"]
Axis Soviet
SQ 6425 41137
AFV 876 4727
Guns 613 12122
Air 1518 10349[/font]
To be continued...

[Silvanski]

The situation before the orders of 7 December 1941.
This resembles more a 1942 frontline...

Units of the 11th, 17th and 1stPz are at the gates of Stalingrad... but... there's blizzard conditions.[X(]

[Silvanski]

My panzers near Stalingrad got a good beating during the first blizzard... game over it seems...
But such is WIR that you can try something different[8D]

I definately wanna try to get the most out of this plan so I went back to the beginning of November 30 1941...
Hindsight is 20/20... I'll order the panzers to pull back behind the Don in order to survive any onslaught the Soviets wanna undertake in that sector. The panzercorps in the central sector have already been moved to cities some weeks ago.

Edited to update: the first serious counter attack by the Soviets succeeded in retaking Rostov, thereby shattering two Romanian corps.
There also seems to be a Soviet build-up in the Leningrad sector. Army Group North is put on high alert to deal with possible Soviet attacks to retake Novgorod.
1941-42 is always a "hot" winter[;)]

[Morphy]

That would be unrealistic - Hitler would have never agreed to withdraw any units. He was a mere moron. Nothing more but corporal serving in WWI.

[Silvanski]

I agree. Elastic defense was not in Hitlers dictionary.

But there are more unrealistic things possible in WIR, like the unheard amount of He-177's and other equipment that can be produced. In a 1944 game I managed to put a fair amount of Me-262's in the hands of the Romanian airforce to protect the oil production against Allied bombing, and they were doing a decent job.
As you will know the Me-262 never appeared on the Eastern Front.

That's the nice thing about WIR: we can try "What-if?" scenarios.

Let's assume that in my current game the generals showed more guts than historically was the case and adviced their Fuhrer to spend Christmas at the Eagles Nest, together with Ms Eva Braun and the rest of his entourage, while they took control of the Eastern Front... [:D]

[Morphy]

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

I agree. Elastic defense was not in Hitlers dictionary.

But there are more unrealistic things possible in WIR, like the unheard amount of He-177's and other equipment that can be produced. In a 1944 game I managed to put a fair amount of Me-262's in the hands of the Romanian airforce to protect the oil production against Allied bombing, and they were doing a decent job.
As you will know the Me-262 never appeared on the Eastern Front.

That's the nice thing about WIR: we can try "What-if?" scenarios.

Let's assume that in my current game the generals showed more guts than historically was the case and adviced their Fuhrer to spend Christmas at the Eagles Nest, together with Ms Eva Braun and the rest of his entourage, while they took control of the Eastern Front... [:D]

As I said Hitler was a mere moron.

As a matter of fact Stalin was a moron as well, but at least he listened to his generals instead of sacking them. And when they disobeyed him he didn't dismiss them.

Me 262 could have appeared in much greater amount if not... Hitler of course The moron wanted it to be a bomber and that's why production of this excellent airplane was severly delayed.

I agree it is 'what if' why we play the game It would be as interesting as it is if you could only watch what has happened in 1941-45...

[Silvanski]

Jan 18 1942

A Soviet infiltration attempt south of Voronezh was rebuffed.
Southeast of the Don is a no-mansland. The Soviets declined to enter the terrain left by the German panzer corps. They also seem to be happy just to hold Rostov for now.
I guard the railroad from Stalino-(north of Rostov)-Voronezh for the supply line into the Don bend.
A human opponent might have attempted a huge pincer movement from the Rostov and Voronezh sectors towards that railroad and Kharkov.

The Soviet industry and oil production have been hit. This has helped to limit Red Army counter attacks.

I impatiently await springtime though[;)]

[pyguinard]

... and how would you like to try those alternative plans against a real human player (like me) ?

[JagdFlanker]

a few months ago i let the german ai advance against a human soviet player which i promply didn't touch at all giving the germans a free hand, and not even once did they even get close to moscow! and i did this many times! (testing and such). so i long ago came to the conclusion the ai is programed to fight a very specific way with no flexability - even worse it is programmed to do worse than historically!

[Silvanski]

Morphy: ...but you will know the German battleplan then[;)] I wanna try it some day but with my variable work shifts I can't make much time right now.

FL: ...1942 surely is gonna be an interesting year in my game against the AI

[Morphy]

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

Morphy: ...but you will know the German battleplan then[;)] I wanna try it some day but with my variable work shifts I can't make much time right now.

I guess you meant PYG...

Anyhow, even if you try to play against me accordingly to alternative Barbarossa I'd play as usual. And it's easy to discern what German priorities are- the more armored corps in certain area, the more important objective...

[Silvanski]

I guess you meant PYG...

Excuse me[8|]

Indeed the concentration of panzers will give away the objectives, and shifting them to various sectors too often is asking for trouble.

[Silvanski]

Here is the situation at the beginning of the March 29 1942 turn. The snow is melting which causes mud.
The light blue line shows the extend of the Soviet advance during the winter. The continued strategic bombing campaign by the Luftwaffe's He-111, Ju-88 and Axis bombers during the winter has had its effect on Russian resources in so far that they were unable to perform a prolonged counterattack. (OK I also admit that the AI is rather daft[:D] and I learned from previous experiences in dealing with blizzard conditions)

The Soviet advance in the North was due to a voluntary retreat. The Finns did a limited attack in order to force the Soviets to send some units to that sector. Leningrad never was a key objective in this campaign.

Because I opted for an elastic defense, not much damage has been done to the Axis forces except the shattering of a weak Romanian corps based near Rostov.
No change on the Crimea where the Soviets still hold Sevastopol.

Although I failed in reaching the 1941 objective (Stalingrad) as outlined in the battleplan (see link in original post), the situation for the Wehrmacht doesn't look too bleak.
For the 1942-summer campaign I have two options as my panzers are in decent shape.

Moscow/Gorki or the Caucasus, which one will it be?

[font="Courier New"]Losses:
Axis Soviet
Squads 9628 46233
AFV's 1081 5326
Guns 2337 13528
Air 6216 15230[/font]

Luftwaffe losses can be a matter of concern

[Morphy]

ORIGINAL: Silvanski
The continued strategic bombing campaign by the Luftwaffe's He-111, Ju-88 and Axis bombers during the winter has had its effect on Russian resources in so far that they were unable to perform a prolonged counterattack. (OK I also admit that the AI is rather daft[:D] and I learned from previous experiences in dealing with blizzard conditions)
[font="Courier New"]Losses:
Axis Soviet
Squads 9628 46233
AFV's 1081 5326
Guns 2337 13528
Air 6216 15230[/font]

As a matter of fact when I play against the AI there is no blizzard turn - as Germans I usually don't seize Gorki so I stop a few hexes eastern to Moscow in October and dig in. A few turns of digging in is enough to discourage AI to do any offensive actions. Then in May 42 I attack and in June/Jule Gorki, Saratov and Stalingrad are mine. The Soviets usually loose approx. 100 K inf. squads.

Playing as the Soviets in 1941 AI is so dumb there is no need to cripple him in winter - I stop and do not attack as long as there is blizzard. Usually in summer I approach Berlin which falls in fall or winter. After winter 41/42 I have total air superiority.

After winter: go for both objectives: Gorki and Stalingrad. The AI is not very bright...

[Silvanski]

ORIGINAL: Morphy

After winter: go for both objectives: Gorki and Stalingrad. The AI is not very bright...

May 5 1942, CLEAR.
North of Lake Peipus the Soviets advanced a bit closer to Talinn. Two Wehrmacht infantry corps have been railed to that sector. For the rest no change.
Four Shock armies have appeared in the Stalingrad sector.
The Wehrmacht has eight Panzer corps ready between Don and Donets, two of them incorporating satellite Pz divisions and StuG brigades.

With the "safe game" feature it's possible to try out various battleplans and your suggestion will be top of the list Morphy.

A diverting attack somewhere between Center and North (the Finns will also participate with an attack in the isthmus) while the main thrust will be made by AG South towards Stalingrad (Saratov is a possible option ---> oil) and the Gorki/Moscow railway. 4 Pz and 3 Pz will start their advance later and link up with the forces coming from the South.