How to DoW Japan as the WA

[JanSorensen]

I figured this technicality out a while ago. After having used in on a couple of opponents and debated it with even more other players I find its best to make it public property.

If a UK unit is able to initiate a declared combat vs Japanese units/territory then this will unfreeze all WA territories.

Please consider the implications when also taking into account the range from Afganistan to ChungKing, Lanchow, Mongolia and Irkursk. Thus any agression by Japan can be met with a bomb from a Lancaster bringing in the US.

I have also debated it with the developers and it is not a bug. What I suggested and what may (or may not) happen though is that the cost to move from Afganistan to Khazakstan is changed from 1 to 2. I personally like that rule and suggest it as a good house rule for now.

Anyway - just remember - you cannot freely have the Japanese cross Siberia without risking US action before 1943.

[Forwarn45]

It is implied in Jan's post, but note also that Russia can similarly provoke early war with Japan if Japan gets too close to its unfrozen or occupied territories.

I should post more on this later. But a quick note - I don't agree with the designers that this is and should be a "feature" of the game. Some newbies have complained about how gameplay should be more transparent. This feature conflicts with the rules as they are written and is a nasty trap for the unwary. If the designers intend to allow Russia or the WA to declare war on Japan early, under particular circumstances, that should be a part of the game itself not something that is triggered by bizarre actions such as invading Afghanistan and staging bombers there! [8|]

When the auto-victory is effectively fixed I don't think there is even any reason for game-balance purposes to allow this. It has only come up in one game I have played where I actually was in the position do take advantage of the early-attack "feature." In that game I agreed not to - although in the future it might be best to consider a house-rule as to when and if it should be used.

[JanSorensen]

Good point about the Russians Forwarn - thanks.

[Forwarn45]

More to follow. But here is an exercept from Roosevelt's speech, December 8th 1941 - alternate version. [:D]

"Yesterday, December 7, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy - the ground forces of the Empire of Japan suddenly and deliberately failed to move out of the way of a British bombing run from Afghanistan. Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger. With confidence in our armed forces - with the unbounded determination of our people - we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us God. I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly failure to dodge on Sunday, December seventh, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire."

A slight modification of the real version of course........

[JanSorensen]

Quite hillarous - thanks for given me a good long laugh.

I find that the problem is that its too easy for the Japanese to go after Russia considering the beating the recently got from Zhukov - but it is also too boring to disallow the Japanese renewing the conflict.

So, while I agree that the means are obscure, I find that the result is reasonable.

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

I have also debated it with the developers and it is not a bug. What I suggested and what may (or may not) happen though is that the cost to move from Afganistan to Khazakstan is changed from 1 to 2. I personally like that rule and suggest it as a good house rule for now.

After reading this last night I decided to do a little graphic work and file modding. Adding a 2MP border will sure put a damper on that exploit. Here is a pic of what I did. look to the upper corner of Afganistan. Do you guys like it? If think I may put this in my mod.

[Autoset]

Leb,
Thanks for the attempt to fix this exploit.

Jan & For,
Had to test it out. Wow!!!
No way around it. This is a serious bug. The idea that Britain or the Soviets can entice the US in a war in this manner sinks lower than beer-and-pretzels to the level of Mickey Mouse.

Did the designers actually give you a solid reason why this is not an exploit?

[Lebatron]

Well this fix is in my mod now. V1.3 is ready for upload as soon as savefile.com is back online. Here is what's in my readme concerning this.

12: Fixed another exploit that breaks the game. Once again, the British have found a way to cheat. Them bastards;) This one unfreezes the US early. The designers have put an impassable wall around the Pacific Rim for a reason. To keep Japan in, and Britain out, until the Japs decide to make war. But the British have a way in! If they capture Afghanistan and place a bomber there, they may have the range to bomb the Japs. For instance, let’s say the Japs just took the Chinese capital. If the British have a bomber in Afghanistan with range 5(not hard to get), they can hit the Japs and instantly unfreeze the US. Then the US can go on a rampage around the Pacific totally hitting the Japs off guard. To have any hope of balance, Japan needs to have the surprise attack. Instead with this exploit, it’s the US who gets it. That’s not cool[:(]
So what I did to deter the WA’s player from using this exploit is made the border between Afghanistan and Eastern Kazakhstan 2MP. It reduces the range a British bomber can travel. Thus making it less likely the WA player would even occupy and place a bomber in Afghanistan. To do what I explained above, the British would need to research to range 6. Probably not worth it and by that time it probably won’t matter. I made a file that patches the map to show a 2MP border there. Install using the instructions above.

[JanSorensen]

Lebatron

You are obviously welcome to use my suggestion to change the border to cost 2 MP. You are also welcome to advertise for your mod ofcourse whereever you please.

But, please dont call my plays for cheats. Maybe I am touchy but I dont appreciate that.

[Autoset]

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen
But, please dont call my plays for cheats. Maybe I am touchy but I dont appreciate that.

Jan,
I'm certain that Leb was not calling you a cheater. (The smiley face is evidence of his sarcasm.) His barb was clearly tongue in cheek.

I appreciate the fact that players like you are able to discover new and unusual ways to exploit this game. Your insight in this matter is helpful to better the game.

-Autoset

[Forwarn45]

I wouldn't characterize it as cheating either. And I think there is an argument that it was an intended and/or reasonable feature to keep the Axis from getting too crazy. But I do want to note that it is not consistent with the rules themselves.

From page 33 - describing the Western Allies: "If Germany or Japan declares a combat against any of these frozen WA regions (or Japan attacks any region controlled by the WA), or ends a movement phase with an Axis submarine in a WA Frozen sea region, all WA Nationalities are immediately considered to be at war . . . ., and these areas are no longer Frozen. These areas become automatically Unfrozen in the Winter 1943 (W '43) turn as war is automatically declared between all WA nations and both Germany and Japan. They also are automatically unfrozen and the US declares war during the WA player's turn if Japan both occupies an non-coastal Chinese nationality region and is at war with the Soviet Union and the date is Winter 1942 or later."

[Forwarn45]

Earlier, I promised more would follow - so here's a couple comments. The argument can be made that the initiation of war by the WA is a useful game feature because it can only be used if Japan gets too agressive. I have two issues with this argument.

First, even if it is neccessary I have previously suggested that it should be a part of the game itself rather than something that must be initiated by bizarre and unreasonable actions. If it is felt that the conquest of Chunking, for example, is too aggressive and somehow skews the game to Japan and the Axis - then that event should in itself unfreeze the US early. The same goes for Russia's ability to initiate early war with Japan. If it is felt that penetration by Japan into China should allow the Russians an opportunity to take on Japan, then that should be a part of the game itself.

The second point I know is debatable. But I strongly feel there is little or no need for the Japanese agression mentioned to trigger early initiation of war with the WA. Japan cannot attack both non-coastal China and Russia without triggering early US entry per the rules themselves. So it's one or the other. I have found the Germany/Japan "sandwich" against Russia to be something that can reasonably be defended against in the current version of the game. The designers have moved some troops and added the fuel cost option in part to address this. I like both the modifications. In fact, since I enjoy playing an aggressive WA game - I kind of like it when my opponent chooses this route. Victory is by no means assured........ Japan's occupation of China has even less an impact on the allies ability to win the game. It requires some measure of supplies and casualties to Japan. It can pay off but it is by no means is a game-breaker.....

[Forwarn45]

hehe - I can't stop talking. But I should mention that I do think there was a bit of a problem with these options under the old "AV" rules. The designers, however, have indicated they will address AV in the next patch. And many people are currently playing with AV off and modified house rules.....

[Autoset]

Edited: I saw your next two posts. We are on the same page.

For,
I agree with your main point; however...

ORIGINAL: Forwarn45

And I think there is an argument that it was an intended and/or reasonable feature to keep the Axis from getting too crazy.

I don't think that this exploit was intendend and certainly it is not reasonable! The programmers made an error (like we all do), simple as that. The idea of a British bomber dropping a few tons of bombs on the Japanese would or could instigate the US into declaring war against the Japanese was simply not on the GGWaW planning table.

Perhaps you could convince me (only for game purposes) that such an action should unfreeze the British ships, but the Americans???

If the designers wanted to create an avenue for the Americans to declare war on the Axis, why would they make it so convoluted, so secret? Why not just program the game to allow the US to declare war in the event that Japan reaches central Siberia?

If we don't call this an exploit and it is not fixed, every game will involve a bomber waiting in India to trigger US's involvement -- not as a strategy, but as a necessity as important as Germany taking out France in the first turn.

I apologize for this rant. I like the game, too. I think they did a great job expanding on the A&A model. I just think bugs such as this one ought to be fixed.

-Autoset

[JanSorensen]

I definitely concur that it was not intended - and definitely not documented.

I do find though that with the border being changed to cost 2 MP its somewhat reasonable balance wise. Once the official rules amenment thread also mentions this hidden rule I consider it fixed.

If I had to give a rationalision it would be that the US had intel that the Japs had committed some really attrocios acts and had asked the English to comfirm from the air (yeah, I know, far fetched - but lets pretend thats is).

[anarchyintheuk]

As long as people are aware it exists, I don't have a problem with it. It just looks like the flip side of the Axis dancing around USSR/USA entry rules. Its another leash on Japan, whether intended or unintended the effect is much the same.

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

Once the official rules amenment thread also mentions this hidden rule I consider it fixed.

What official rules thread? Where do you find this?

[JanSorensen]

Look just above from this thread (at the time of posting) and you shall find the "Official Rules Clarifications & Changes" thread.

[aletoledo]

being a recent japanese victim to this trick in a 2x2 game, I can say that I don't mind it the way it is.

I think it is a bit underhanded to use it as a surprise trick, but I suppose we all have to learn about it sometime. I can say that I felt the same way when the allied turn one transport attack trick against italy or the axis neutral country victory was each used against me the first time. however after those surprise loses, I haven't lost to them since.

once all these trick/gambits are brought to the light of day, they really cease to be viable strategies. therefore I think there are better things for the developers to pursue than this. if they go to the trouble of working around this trick, than they have to work around all the other tricks. yet its not like we as players can't defend against these tricks once we're aware of them.

IMO this trick ends any debate about the validity of a double attack against russia. with this out in the open, the WA now have the option anytime to stop the japs quite easily and likely pull off an easy win.

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: Forwarn45
First, even if it is neccessary I have previously suggested that it should be a part of the game itself rather than something that must be initiated by bizarre and unreasonable actions. If it is felt that the conquest of Chunking, for example, is too aggressive and somehow skews the game to Japan and the Axis - then that event should in itself unfreeze the US early. The same goes for Russia's ability to initiate early war with Japan. If it is felt that penetration by Japan into China should allow the Russians an opportunity to take on Japan, then that should be a part of the game itself.

Yes I agree events like these should be set in stone. Well actually the game already has them but with loopholes. But the conquest of Chungking should not be one of those. I know you were just giving an example, but its conquest would hardly skew the game. So making it a trigger would be a bad idea.

As far as Russia goes, I think the current system to declare war works fine, but I see your point about making it a part of the game itself. The way I see it, if Russia feels things are going well enough for them in the west and they wish to declare war on Japan, them let them. It doesn't break anything. Its merely their choice to fight a two front war. The means they go about starting this war with Japan may seem kind of strange but it works. Sometimes wars start with a bombing run. So it’s not unreasonable for Russia to initiate early war with Japan if they got the balls to do so. I have no problem with that. What’s broken is when the British do it. I doubt that the designers are going to address this in the next patch. What I heard was that Moscow or London was going to be a new requirement for AV. Nothing mentioned about adjusting trigger events that I heard of.

In reply to anarchy:
"As long as people are aware it exists, I don't have a problem with it. It just looks like the flip side of the Axis dancing around USSR/USA entry rules. Its another leash on Japan, whether intended or unintended the effect is much the same."

As autoset said, if people don't house rule to not allow it, why wouldn't the British player not take advantage of it every game? You'd down right love it if you played the WA's. America getting the sneak attack instead of Japan, come on, that’s HUGE. That’s a game breaker. That is not the flip side of the Axis avoiding war as long as possible. With a fixed AV the neutral land grab won't work anyway. War with Russia is inevitable. You can't think the British bomber exploit is a fair way to keep Japan under control do you? How short a leash do you expect the Japanese player to live with? Where can they go? Anymore than one space inland and they're screwed. They can't enter Irkutsk, or Chungking without being within 5 of that bomber. They are left with no options. Expansion is key to Japan. If you don't allow that before the US enters, the game will be seriously out of balance.