Another political question for the WWII experts

[Lebatron]

Hi guys,
Once again I got a what-if question for ya. It involves the gamey attack on East Prussia by the British. Lets say it happens, what do you think Stalin would do? Here is my point of view right out of my latested update to my mod which I will post shortly. Link here:Franco's Alliance and Strait Deal
11: Fixed an exploit that I believe breaks the game. That being, the WA’s invasion of East Prussia to unfreeze the Soviets early. It’s unrealistic to think that just because the British take the fight a little more east and gain some German soil temporarily, that Stalin would break his pact with Hitler. I think at this early point in the war it would have been more likely to see the Soviets help the Germans expel the British. After all, Stalin would not wish to see the British liberate Poland. Such a move would likely have caused Stalin to declare war on the British or further cement German Soviet relations. But in the game this exploit does the opposite. It totally breaks the game. So what I have done is remove the garrison requirement from East Prussia and bumped Poland’s up by one. Also moved and infantry from Czech to Poland to satisfy the requirement. Now the British landing in Prussia will do nothing but get them killed.

[Autoset]

I agree with your logic. Not sure Stalin would help destroy the British, but he would not rally to their cause.

Question: Isn't it easy for Germans to place an (or two) ART, an INF, a FTR and an AA in Denmark to remove said possibility?

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: Autoset

Question: Isn't it easy for Germans to place an (or two) ART, an INF, a FTR and an AA in Denmark to remove said possibility?

Sure, but why make it necessary to over defend Denmark like that? Just remove the problem and the British won’t make such an unrealistic invasion. The trick could still be tried at Western Poland, but the Germans can more easily move replacements in to prevent the unfreezing of Russia. So the British trying that is kind of pointless now, as it should be.

[JanSorensen]

Maybe Stalin wound figure it a sign of German weakness and take out the rest of Poland before the British.

Regardless. I find that stomping out options in a game like this might make for a better simulation but risks making a more dull game. Afterall the game is abstract in so many ways that insisting on more historical accuracy in a few places seem like trying to handle the Dresden fire with a plastic water pistol. That said - if you really dont like options then your solution seems fine.

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

Regardless. I find that stomping out options in a game like this might make for a better simulation but risks making a more dull game.

I'm not stomping out any option. The WA's are still free to take out the Denmark garrison, move into the Baltic, fight the German fleet, and land in Prussia. You still got the "option" to conquer Prussia if you want too. The question is should it be checkmate? That move shouldn’t be that powerful. It should not be some magic key that unlocks the Soviets. I can understand your reluctance to see this as a positive change. After all, its human nature to cling to something when you have fond memories of it. You beat Svend using this exploit, so naturally you kind of like it now.

Another point I’d like to kindly debate. That is, you said preventing this exploit makes for a duller game. Well I beg to differ. That AAR between you and Svend was kind of dull to me. Where was the mid and endgame action? In chess getting checkmate in 4 is fun for awhile, but latter you begin to crave a more solid experience.

If 2by3 games had released this game without the, flunky and unrealistic, Prussian Gambit exploit, would you have said “where is my option to unfreeze the Soviets using this gambit?” I don’t think you would have. What real world experience would make you think such a move would cause the Soviets to declare war on Germany? It’s never been in any well developed WWII game I have seen.

Once again, let’s revisit this what-if. But let’s call it by a more realistic name. Say “Operation Liberation Poland.” After all, would that not be the British objective if they established a bridgehead in Prussia? Let’s forget about the illogic of liberating Poland before France for a second. The allied liberation of Poland is underway. Do you think for one second that Stalin would side with the allies and just hand back the half of Poland he just acquired. No way in Hell. At this early stage in the war, Stalin and Hitler were pseudo allies. This allied attempt to liberate Poland would have resulted in a partnership between Germany and Russia to throw out the allies, ending any future hope that the Russians would join the allies, unless Hitler betrayed them down the road.

In summary the destruction of the garrison at Prussia creates an event that is the total opposite of what would have happened and must be corrected. Those that argue that this removes a choice have to realize that all game have bounds. And these bounds or rules make or break a game. In this case this garrison rule breaks it. Remove the garrison requirement and you fix the problem.

[JanSorensen]

Landing a German invasion in Scotland to make Sealion happen is also unrealistic - yet that is how it is done in this game. There are probably countless such unrealistic things in the game.

My point is that this is a game too - and if you get too hung up on realism you will risk stomping out interesting plays. If it had been impossible hard to the Germans to avoid this particular trick it should obviously be fixed - but its pretty easy for the Germans to avoid and as such there is little reason to do anything about it.

I dont really mind what you do with your mod it just doesnt seem importent to me. Obviously we disagree and that is fine with me.

[Doobious]

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

Landing a German invasion in Scotland to make Sealion happen is also unrealistic - yet that is how it is done in this game. There are probably countless such unrealistic things in the game.

I'm not sure about that. Occupy England or isolate it. Either one is effective. Maybe the Germans understood that?