How to DoW Japan as the WA

[JanSorensen]

Yet the Japanese did not expand further into China or Russia in the real war - but you are advocating that they should do so basically in every single game. I could have sworn you were against ahistorical scenarios that play out in the majority of games.

If anything the problem is that the Japanese have too little reason to attack the US till late 42. The dutch oil fields just dont carry the strategic importence they did in the real war - so grabbing Russian/Chinese resources is often a better choice. Incidently this also means that adding 3 extra resources to China pushes for an ahistorical option on a one-sided basis.

Keep in mind - I advocate the 2 MP border so my argumentation is with that in mind.

[aletoledo]

Yet the Japanese did not expand further into China or Russia in the real war - but you are advocating that they should do so basically in every single game. I could have sworn you were against ahistorical scenarios that play out in the majority of games.

If anything the problem is that the Japanese have too little reason to attack the US till late 42. The dutch oil fields just dont carry the strategic importence they did in the real war - so grabbing Russian/Chinese resources is often a better choice. Incidently this also means that adding 3 extra resources to China pushes for an ahistorical option on a one-sided basis.

I think your point is important, in that this and many other aspects pointed out elsewhere, show that there are too many "ahistorical" aspect to this game to turn it into ww2.

we should accept the game for what it is currently and not expect much more from it. If anything, we should encourage any design changes to be put into a W@W-2

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen
Yet the Japanese did not expand further into China or Russia in the real war - but you are advocating that they should do so basically in every single game. I could have sworn you were against ahistorical scenarios that play out in the majority of games.

Yes I'm 'advocating' that they should try to do so every single game. It’s the players goal to outperform what happened historically. Are you advocating that every Jap player should not try to take more than what was historical? That attitude makes no sense. You don't seem to understand the point I was making above. The game was designed in such a way that it’s intended to be the Japanese player who decides when the US will enter. Either by doing Pearl Harbor or attacking both China and Russia thus setting a known date for US entry. When that option is taken away from the Japanese it will seriously upset game balance. Something is broken when its the US getting the surprise attack.

I pointed out two ridiculously silly exploits, the Prussian Gambit and now this one, and now you keep labeling me, saying with no justification that I don't like options. Yes, I don't consider exploiting a loophole an option, I'll give you that. In my book loopholes are not options. These are what I consider real game options:
Germany going for the north or south in Russia
Germany invests heavily in subs or not
Germany deciding when to attack Russia
Japan deciding when to sneak attack the WA's
Japan deciding between China, India, Russia or all 3 if he pleased
Any number of research choices
Any choice of builds available
Where you decide to place them
Where you decide to move them
The list can go on and on with all the choices players got. Playing the game within reasonable bounds still leaves a ton of variety. Your statement before that games would be dull without the exploits is totally beyond reason. We differ philosophically on what we consider options. I read between the lines to understand the intent of the game designer. When I find a loophole, I do not take advantage of it just because its there.

However I do agree with you that Japan has little incentive to attack the US until late 42. He focuses inland with the preference being Russia since it’s more optimal for the Axis than China. These are the only 2 routes Japan can take that keeps America at bay. The 3 extra resources I added in China are there to create another option for Japan. How about that, my mod actually adds options. Now taking the China route will be seriously considered rather than cast aside as suboptimal. I don't think much can be done to convince Japan to declare war on the US earlier. Making the Islands richer would not do much to convince me to awaken the sleeping giant. Perhaps something more radical needs to be done. Maybe if Pearl Harbor got stronger as time went on, the Japs would not wait overly long to strike it. I could place a factory there with some carriers or BB’s in the cue. What do you think of that idea?

[JanSorensen]

Lets just agree to disagree. It irks me that you call my way of playing cheating but I will just have to accept that.

As for reading between the lines or not. I simply ask the developers. If they say something is a bug - like the ability to allocate research during movement - I wont use it. If they say that attacking Japan with the UK to unfreeze the USA is fine then I will even if I figured it a bug myself. The Prussian play is very clearly within what they had in mind - just looking at the errata shows that.

[Scott_WAR]

This is going to cause serious balance issues if not corrected. The only real way for the axis to win is by AV or the "double squeeze".... attacking Russia with both Germany and Japan early, so the US cant interfere.

This bug/feature takes the double squeeze away. It will no longer work, since the WA player can bring the US into the war as soon as Japan takes ANY russian territory. WA bombers can be teched to a range of 6 by summer 1941, meaning if Japan only takes Vladivostok and no other Russian territories, the WA can still reach it and attack, bringing the USA into the war. So japan cant do ANYTHIG without the USA coming into the war.


Very nice find Jan. You have to be the best at finding unique ways to hurt the axis [:D]

[JanSorensen]

The range to Vlad is 7 (and will be 8 with a change to the Afgan border). Maybe you meant Irkutsk which is 5 (and will be 6). If the English want to tech range to 6 they will have spent 6 points to get to range 5 before the Japanese have to commit anything towards Russia and possible have shipped the bomber to India losing its use.

The WA then have to throw even more points into range still not knowing if the Japs are going after Russia. So, if the WA really wants to go this route he can end up using quite alot of points on a whole lot of nothing much if the Japs decide differently.

Its clear that you find a large imbalance in favor of the Allies - so let me ask out of curiousity. How much +supply to the Axis (Germany and/or Japan) do you think it needed to attain balance? I obviously dont know but I actually think that the developer had some sort of +supply bidding in mind for competetive play.

[Scott_WAR]

Count again. The range to Vlad is 6 right now and will be 7 when the border is changed. The WA can have range 7 bombers by winter'42. So its still going to be a problem with the new border.

Afgahn to E Kazakh- 1 point, soon to be 2
E Kazakh to C siberia- 2 points
C siberia to Irkutsk- 2 points
Irkutsk to Vlad- 1 point- Its a single line border.

Thats 6 now, 7 after the border change.


In my opinion there shouldnt be a bid necessary for the game to be balanced. To have a bid be necessary means the game is imbalanced, and that should NEVER be the case. But thats a matter of opinion I guess.

[JanSorensen]

You are correct - we both had the range wrong.

Getting to range 7 would cost the WA 33 points - some of which are used without knowing if the Japanese even intend to attack. Also, most of these are used at the time where the WA can least affort it so they have to come out of something else. Mind, the Japanese would see this coming from the tech going up and could then prepare to launch their attack in spring 42.

I am not saying it will not deter a Japanese attack on Russia most of the time because it will. But, its not that one-sided either.

Mind, I also think that the Allies have (and will have) the advantage - but I dont think that letting Japan walk all over the eastern parts of the SSSR is the solution.

[Scott_WAR]

Yeah, Japan being able to walk into Russia does seem a little too easy if done early.

Increasing the range of the WA bombers to deter Japan from attacking Russia is well worth it in my opinion, especially when you consider it will also give the WA bombers a longer range in the atlantic, perfect for combining with ASW and reaching those pesky German subs, and gives the WA the ability to bomb deeper into Germany, so I think its not a bad idea at all for the WA.

[JanSorensen]

Quite possibly. I never use those heavy bombers as the WA personally so I am likely biased against seeing the value in that extra range.

[Scott_WAR]

Heh, I have seen them getting used more and more. The most recent thing I have seen is having them escort transports to protect the transports against subs. Especially useful for protecting a transport chain for lend lease to russia.

[Forwarn45]

Increasing bomber range to be able to initiate war with Japan is just one more reason why the current system needs changed.

For my next game, I am proposing the following house rule and I'd like a little feedback as to what some people on both sides think as to whether it's reasonable!

It is as follows: The WA (or Russia in the case of China) can only initiate war against Japan if they get too far into Asia - this would be defined as Japan taking Sinkiang or Yuman in China (the last two territories) or Eastern Kazakhstan or Western Siberia in Russia.

[Harrybanana]

I personally would like to see more incentive for Japan (or Germany) to DOW the States prior to W43. How about a rule change that instead of the game ending automatically after the end of the Fall 46 turn, the game will instead end 16 turns after both the US and Russia are in the war. Therefore if the Japan pull the surprise attack on W42 turn, the last turn will be F45.

[JanSorensen]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I personally would like to see more incentive for Japan (or Germany) to DOW the States prior to W43. How about a rule change that instead of the game ending automatically after the end of the Fall 46 turn, the game will instead end 16 turns after both the US and Russia are in the war. Therefore if the Japan pull the surprise attack on W42 turn, the last turn will be F45.

That is one very interesting idea. I need to consider it further but my initial impression is that it would do the game alot of good.

[Forwarn45]

I personally would like to see more incentive for Japan (or Germany) to DOW the States prior to W43. How about a rule change that instead of the game ending automatically after the end of the Fall 46 turn, the game will instead end 16 turns after both the US and Russia are in the war. Therefore if the Japan pull the surprise attack on W42 turn, the last turn will be F45.

I agree this is an interesting idea. It would require some modification of the victory conditions but is otherwise suprisingly simple!

On another point - I am still interested in response to the house rules I mentioned earlier about when WA (and Russia) can attack Japan.

[Harrybanana]

I would agree with your house rules Forewarn. Though perhaps I would go even further and just forbid the Allies from pulling this gambit at all. I know the Developers have said this is not a bug, but I personally think it is a bit cheesy. However, this is just my personal opinion and I can appreciate how others might disagree.

[JanSorensen]

That seems reasonable to me Forwarn - though I may personally suggest adding the Central Siberia to the list - leaving Irkutsk as free game but no further.

I simply find it unrealistic that the Japanese had no restriction on attacking Russia despite their real life reluctance to do so because of the recent beating they had taken.