Pioneers and Engineers

[Adamo]

I'm playing through the Das Reich campaign for the first time and I'm encountering mines, tank obstacles and barbed wire. Can both Pioneers and Engineers find and remove all three of those things? Also, is one unit better than the other for some of them?

[VikingNo2]

I beleive they are both the same, the best way to remove faster is to have more than one unit work on the same hex.

I'm sure the size and exp of the squad helps, the big and higher the better.

[JediMessiah]

pioneers are elite recon units

regular engineers are only recon iirc

[Alby]

Pioneers=Engineers in German OOB

[JediMessiah]

actually german oob has regular engineers too


pioneers are elite recon engineers w/ hts

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: JediMessiah

actually german oob has regular engineers too


pioneers are elite recon engineers w/ hts

Yes, my bad the pioneers are the mechanized engineers

[Sturmpionier]

Sturmpioniers are actually the coolest. (Especially the 43. Sturmpionier Bataillon[;)])

SP doesn't always perfectly mirror the terminology of the German OOB. In SP they use different terms (Engineer, Pionier) for the movement capacity (Mech or not.) However, the Germans separated them by function. You had your Sturmpioniers (assault engineers) Brueckenpioniers (bridging engineers) & Baupioniers (construction engineers.) SP only lightly touches on function of the Brueckenpioniers and the Baupioniers are not part of the scope of the game at all.

Just as a side note, SP also cannot mirror the fact that Sturmpionier units had a flexible weapon loadout. Meaning, they were allowed to go to the GHQ weapons cache and 'sign out' weapons for specific missions. One mission we used to have on our 43. Sturmpionier website had them describe checking out extra MG-34's for laying suppression fire on a bunker in an open area. Later in the war, these pioniers all went and 'got' MP-40's for close assaulting a fort. This is not a complaint as I know that this would require a major hard-code change, but just FYI next time you are thinking of pioniering your way through a game.

Squirm und Sturm!

[Puukkoo]

Pionieren are German for 'Combat Engineers'. There is a word Ingenieur in German too, but it refers to those guys who build houses and bridges and is not a military term at all.

Americans speak of 'Pioneers' with a part of the Wild West saga. That term is completely different than German Pionier.

The same distinction appears in Finnish too. Finn combat engineers are called pioneerit. Finnish has also word insinööri, which origins from the word 'engineer', but is not used as a military term at all.

[Sturmpionier]

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo


Americans speak of 'Pioneers' with a part of the Wild West saga. That term is completely different than German Pionier.

It was not only men behind a plow and women wearing huge bonnets. Americans military forces employed "Pioneer" units in the 19th c much like precursors to later "engineers." Most notable were the "Pioneer" units of the American Civil War who sometimes had pick and axe badges on their sleeves. They were called on to build earthworks, cut down logs, set up abatis, etc. I don't know the root of the word, but I would bet that it has something to do with cutting down/up trees. Just a guess.

[Puukkoo]

Thanks for that note Sturmpionier. I didn't know about that American Civil War era. The etymology of 'Pioneer' should be my next task. I don't even know what language it originally is. Will be back.

[Terminus]

From www.allwords.com :

Etymology: 16c: from French peonier, from Latin pedo foot soldier.

[Puukkoo]

Thanks for the link Terminus. I was just after that word, but I doubt whether it comes from pedo. Latin pedo means 'to fart'. The word for foot is pes, pedis(nominative, genitive). Foot soldier is pedes, peditis. A Roman engineer was called faber, whose literal meaning is 'smith'.

To English the word has come from French. In French pionnier is explained être le premier à faire, 'to make something as first'.

Why could it not also come from Latin word pons, pontis, which means 'bridge', but also 'a build-up road'. (And that probably comes from pono verb 'to set'). If the root of pionnier is derived from Latin pons, the etymology is 'a bridge builder'.

Further explanations:
pons+ier= 'bridge builder'.
Latin pons becomes in French mouth *pionns.

DON'T THINK THIS AS PROPER LINGUISTIC HISTORY
THIS IS NOTHING BUT A GREASY HYPOTHESIS BY PUUKKOO

[Sturmpionier]

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo

pedo means 'to fart'.

I move that we make this the official meaning of the word.

DON'T THINK THIS AS PROPER LINGUISTIC HISTORY
THIS IS NOTHING BUT A GREASY HYPOTHESIS BY PUUKKOO

I come from the American South. I like everything greasy, from fried chicken to professional wrestling.

[Terminus]

Grease is always good...

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo

Pionieren are German for 'Combat Engineers'. There is a word Ingenieur in German too, but it refers to those guys who build houses and bridges and is not a military term at all.

Americans speak of 'Pioneers' with a part of the Wild West saga. That term is completely different than German Pionier.

The same distinction appears in Finnish too. Finn combat engineers are called pioneerit. Finnish has also word insinööri, which origins from the word 'engineer', but is not used as a military term at all.

Comprehensive German for English-speaking people:

Ingenieur = Engineer with a university degree (people who plan and oversee constructions). German construction units (sing. Baubataillon/pl. Baubataillone) sometimes fielded engineers that were in charge of construction works but did not belong to the military part Wehrmacht (they were "Beamte", civil servants who were part of the Wehrmacht but did not held officer rank even if they were treated as officers).

Pionier = German military term for combat engineer

Baupionier/Bausoldat = German military term for construction engineer

Sturmpionier: German military term for "assault" engineer (generally used for combat engineers in specialized "Sturmpionierbataillonen" that were army or corps troops and did not belong to combat divisions).

As a side note: Not all German construction units did belong to the Wehrmacht, some were part of the RAD ("Reichsarbeitsdienst" ~ Civil Construction Service) or the OT (Organisation Todt, another civil construction service).

[Puukkoo]

Thank you Kereguelen. That was comprehensive.

[Procrustes]

Pioneer

Just to beat it to death... The Oxford English Dictionary traces the word to Old French.

===============================================================

pioneer, n.

[a. F. pionnier, OF. paonier (11th c.), also peon(n)ier, pion(n)ier,
orig. foot-soldier, later pioneer, f. OF. peon, pion: see PEON, PAWN,
and -IER. So Prov. pezonier, pessonier, f. pezon foot-soldier.]

1. Mil. One of a body of foot-soldiers who march with or in advance of
an army or regiment, having spades, pickaxes, etc. to dig trenches,
repair roads, and perform other labours in clearing and preparing
the way for the main body.

*2. a. gen. One who digs a trench, pit, etc.; a digger, excavator; a
miner. Obs.

b. A labourer (app. confused with PINER1).

3. (fig.)

a. One who goes before to prepare or open up the way for
others to follow; one who begins, or takes part in beginning,
some enterprise, course of action, etc.; an original
investigator, explorer, or worker, in any department of
knowledge or activity; an originator, initiator (of some
action, scheme, etc.); a forerunner (in such action, etc.). (In
17th c. usually a fig. use of ‘miner’ or ‘underminer’.)

b. (Usu. with cap. initial.) In Ireland, a member of the Pioneer
Total Abstinence Association; a teetotaller.

c. Ecol. A plant which establishes itself in an unoccupied area.

d. (Usu. with capital initial.) In the U.S.S.R. and other
communist countries, a member of a Society of Young Pioneers, a
movement for children below the age of sixteen. Also transf.
and attrib.

4. attrib.

a. (Usually appositive, in sense 3).

b. (In sense 3c above) pioneer association, plant, species, tree.

[Sturmpionier]

[:@]

I am upset that my suggestion to link the word 'pionier' to the Latin-root 'pedo' (to fart) has received no second. As an angry poltergeist, you should really pay more attention [cue creepy music.]

Thus, as a reenactor of the 43. Sturmpionier Bataillon, we could loosely translate my unit to "43rd assault fart squad." This would serve several functions, not the least of which is that it would explain our affinity for flamthrowers.

It simply does not get any better than this. [:D]

[Puukkoo]

OMG Oxford English Dictionary!

I see it's getting serious, but thank you. I had no idea about old French form paonier. I know that French negative morpheme pas (e.g. je ne sais pas) has come from latin passus, which means 'step'. Modern French doesn't seem to have any other use for that root. There's only word paon, which means 'peacock'. Pioneers are hardly flattered.

With that evidence it is clear that 'pioneer' origins from Medieval French and has nothing to do with 'bridging'. Again learning something new.

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: Sturmpionier

Thus, as a reenactor of the 43. Sturmpionier Bataillon, we could loosely translate my unit to "43rd assault fart squad."

I'm horrified![X(][X(]

The Geneva Protocol 1925:


"Whereas the use in war of asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases, and of all analogous liquids, materials or devices, has been justly condemned by the general opinion of the civilised world;"
[:-]

[:D][:D][:D][:D]