3 years and nothing changed

[ibalkid]

ORIGINAL: AndrewC

As usual, anglo-americans talking out of their rear ends about a subject they know very little about or don't care enough to research it properly. The strange thing is that games like Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin and Panzer General 2 represent Romanian troops more accurately and in a better light. The rosiori] (cavalry) are regarded as the best non-German Axis troops in CMBB, whereas in SPWaW, romanian cavalry are easily routed by Soviet partisans. ...

Crying, whining, and moaning is very ugly and unbecoming. Do not let patriotism and emotions sour a fine game. I am of Yugoslavian decent and have never really played a war game/sim where i felt my ancestors were represented accurately. Wether i am correct or not is irrelevant. All that is really important is a great gaming experience with some like minded individuals. If an editor of sorts is added or that game is very modable then its just a big bonus for me, if not oh well i still want too experience great war gaming.

If people feel that they can not be bothered to use the editor for such small changes then you are just a lazy sod. If you do not know how to i am sure the forums are full of helpful people who will either, help you make those changes, or make them for you if it is not too work intensive.

The people who work on this game can not be expected to get every detail right, or to make everyone happy.

It would also help your case if you did not act in such a crass and rude manner. Do you really think people will be receptive to your suggestions when you instantly put them on the defensive with your uber agressive and offensive behaviour? Dont you think your arguments would be better recieved with a mature post detailing your complaints, instead of an insult filled rant like post?

Tweaking is needed, i agree, you just need to chill a tad.

[ibalkid]

The Romaniam troops on the Eastern Front sucked that is why their morale levels etc are so low because in reality the Romanian army of world war two was quite terrible. Granted that when everything was fine and dandy in the first year (1941) the Romanians managed to do some good, even in early 42 they were ok (Crimea etc) but they really screwed up after that, part of the dabacle at Stalingrad was thanks to the ineptitude of the Romanian and Hungarian forces to the North and South of Stalingrad. So instead of saying that this game, which is damn realistic in terms of troop quality etc, is a crock of ****, perhaps you should reevaluate your country's conduct during the war, after all you did technically switch sides in late 44 did you not?

Fuck off. I know full well what happened. On the other hand, you and the others keep spewing baseless claims and generalizations. I have posted several quotes from top ranking German officers and I also gave you examples of situations in which Romanian troops proved their fighting spirit. What did you bring into this discussion? Nada. Keep yelling Stalingrad like a 12 year old kid. But since you mentioned Stalingrad, let's talk about it. First, remember that Romanian units could not move even a single inch without German approval. They were there whether they liked it or not. Thus it was the OKH's responsability to look into that their allies are properly equipped and prepared for the task at hand, which was to defend a 438 kilometer long front. There were two romanian armies; the 3rd with 163,703 men (including a few German troops) and the 4th army with 75,580 men. On the opposing side, the R

I do not question the Romanian soldiers fortitude. I do question the leadership, which for a country as small as Romania, could be fatal in a WW. Romania, as the rest of the Baltic nations suffered from lack of Industrialization due to the Turks mucking about the area for 500 years or so. Most Baltic countries were still trying to sort themselves out afterr WWI, and behind the rest of Europe inregards to industrialization and Technologies. Its a fact. I do agree that Romania is not represented in the game well, but i just dont see them or any of the Baltic nation being rated much higher.

Another point to consider. Rommel also claimed that the italian troops were superb. All that he felt they lacked was proper leader ship and logistical support(Which was non exhistant) This does not mean that we should jack up Italy ratings because of what could have been. The game try to make historical representations, not always accurate as you have so tersley pointed out...

Again, relax...

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: monty pete

HAHAHA[:D] You call the deal you signed with Russia something that saved you?! You just were afraid of being over run by the Russians which suggests to me that a lot of those men who are rightly called heroes(those who fought in the winter war) were betryed/ died out by the time of the Lapland war.

You've got great attitude towards the others...

By the time of Lappland war those who fought in Winter war were sent home (part of the cease-fire treaty) and those who fought in Lappland were conscripts (some had some war experience, but not too many). Still they pushed Germans back to Norway.

I don't know how others call cease-fire treaty with Soviet. It started 4.9.1944 (Soviet ceased to fire 5.9.1944). Soviet offensives were stopped months ago. So there was no critical situation at that time. Soviet interests were more south. So cease-fire didn't "save" Finland. Ofcourse it had to be done but the major thread was stopped by Finnish army.


AndrewC: Agree your point that minor nations morale/experience is too low. However m10bob is right: best way to effect something is to participate.

And Svennemir's politely is needed. It's psychological: If you just yell, everyone think you're an *******, and it effects nothing. Polite way is slow but often leads to something good. [:)]

[Nikademus]

Examples of bravery can be cited for every nation that fought in the war. Braverly and fortitude are, after all, not copyrighted or patented by any one nation or group of nations. I still believe it would be regrettable to return to the 'Politically friendly' OOB sets that were in previous versions of the game, returning SP to a more or less generic feel.

Then again, Its kind of ironic given that SP has one of the most customizable preferences menus offered that such arugments as contained in this thread get vented. If one feels that their country of choice is being under-represented (again), then one simply only has to turn off the country training setting and choose for themselves the exp level desired. Either that or design one's own scenario.

Just recently played an interesting WinSPBT scn depciting an East German Tank company fighting with T-62's. What made it interesting was that for once (vs. the canned scn/campaign generators) the tankers were of very good quality and combined with good tactics the T-62's fought very well losing not a single MBT while destroying a dozen Leapords. A nice change of pace given that most scn's i play vs this and other Soviet equip types usually involve poorly trained third world participants leading to a typical slaughter.

-Edit

This thread reminded me of some thoughts i'd had a while back. One improvement i would have loved to have seen in a future SP edition would be a better more distinct seperation between setting morale and exp levels in the game. As it stands, setting an exp level either through country training settings or player defined settings are the only fast means to set unit exp/morale ratings with the result that Morale and Exp ratings are usually identical (i.e. you set or CT sets a country's units at 70 as an exp base so Morale auto-defaults to the same)

This prevents such historical representations such as poorly trained but highly motivated troops (ex. exp 40 morale 90) or flipping the coin, high exp units but with poor morale (exp 80 morale 30) I would love it if a new seperate preference setting for "morale" could be added to the game.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: AndrewC

Actually, the Romanians didn't perform well in 1941, either. They bungled the siege of Odessa and had to have German troops help them out.

More generalizations and oversimplifications of facts... You resumed a whole operation in 15 words. You forgot to mention that Odessa was a heavily fortified city, with 250 kilometers of anti-tank ditch, 45 kilometers of barbed wire, trenches, bunkers and over 40,000 mines. Also, the Russians could rely on on the VVS and ChF to bring in supplies and reinforcements at will. The Romanian Navy was too small to engage the ChF directly. But let me ask you this: Did any other Axis participant manage to capture an important city like Odessa almost all by themselves? The German troops who assisted the 4th Rom. Army in the battle of Odessa consisted less than 5% of the total Axis manpower there.

Funny that you didn't quote the second part of my post...[8|]

[AndrewC]

nt

[ranXerox]

HAHAHA[:D] You call the deal you signed with Russia something that saved you?! You just were afraid of being over run by the Russians which suggests to me that a lot of those men who are rightly called heroes(those who fought in the winter war) were betryed/ died out by the time of the Lapland war.

Well firstly, almost all of Winter War veterans(all but dead/wounded) fought also in Continuation War. The war against germans was not really a war at all, only an operation to push them to the north and out of Finland. There wasn't much casualties, just some cases of firefighting in couple of northern cities. It was a deal that germans and finns would have few kilometers space between them so that the evacuation of germans could go on without any casualties. But in some cities, germans set fire on buildings and raped women so there was some confrontations.

To your point: Russia was about to break through(sooner of later) our last lines and if there wasn't this peace contract, Finland would have been like Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania - a satellite to communism. Finns were not facists nor communists, just in bad place in-between. And I truly can say finnish soldiers were among the bravest there was, stretching themselfs to the limits and beyond.

The deal with Russia was a good move from leaders of the nation. Without it the history would have been very very different.

[AndrewC]

nt

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: ranXerox

To your point: Russia was about to break through(sooner of later) our last lines

Disagree. Read above. Finnish last line was Salpa-line which remained untouchable. Soviet main forces reached breakthrough in Isthmus but were stopped near Viipuri (Vyborg). Same happened in north of lake Laatokka (Ladoga) in U-line. After fierce fighting Soviet assault was repulsed everywhere and they moved their main forces to German front. Finland's situation at the time of cease-fire 4./5.9.1944 was not very bad. In june it was REALLY bad, but not anymore. (Also thanks to our co-fighter's AT-weapons.)

Re-read our history. Lots of books can be found. [;)]

[Sturmpionier]

Am I the only one who finds this entire thread hilarious?

I'm not trying to say that there isn't a serious idea to be found here; or that this isn't important, but man I gotta laugh at how this is being presented.

I feel like Porky Pig in that Robin Hood spoof where everything that Daffy (Robin Hood) does winds up looking silly. Daffy is totally into it, but Porky is just laughing until he cries.

I'm starting to get the giggles again, so signing off for now,

Friar Duck

p.s. I think I will have to stop reading this thread before I have a stroke from the hilarity.

[VikingNo2]

Don't have much to say I just thought my avatar and Sturmpionier's would look cool together

[Sturmpionier]

The site put your post on a separate page. Sooo, to help you out, this just a gratitutous post to put our avatars together.

[omegaall]

Cool????

[monty pete]

Bravery was in certain circumstances present in the Romanian ranks. But by and large the Romanian troops lacked discipline, coordination, leadership (unless it was German led), equipment and morale etc. A few good eggs in an egg basket full of rotten ones makes little difference therefore to the end product which in this case is a shody performance by the Romanians during the war. As your sources say there were individual acts of heroism and occasionally good results however most of the time the Romanians were a poor force. Havig the results so low in morale etc is a little unfair.Busting them up about five points each ought to cover it though.

As for Finland, I personally still respect the Finns for their acheivements against the Russians in the Winter war, and I beleive if those forces had been present in their entirety at the start of the Contnuation war the Russians would probably have lost a hell of a lot more men in the north and even might have lost Leningrad. This however was not the case and it is a shame in terms of prestigethat the Finns did notkeep fighting the Russians. I do however understand why they picked a different course.

[Terminus]

The Finns never had any intention of being sucked into Leningrad. All they wanted was to regain what the Soviets had stolen from them during the Winter War, and they did.

[KG Erwin]

I started a post awhile back about "Underappreciated Nations in SPWaW". See tm.asp?m=922111

However, to see the kind of "sniping" and "partisanship" as displayed in this particular thread was not what I expected at all.

I will say this -- if I were still moderating this forum, some of you guys would've gotten verbal warnings about foul language and name-calling, but the thread itself would remain open. [:-]

None of the OOB designers had any sort of "anti-" anything agenda. I can say that because I WAS one of the latter-day OOB team members.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: omegaall

Cool????

ROFL... yes this thread is quite hilarious, culminating with this post... seriously though, some people need to cool of with their patriotism and use less rude language.

I guess I post this just because I think my current avatar will sit nicely in the company of above two [&o]

Oleg

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

None of the OOB designers had any sort of "anti-" anything agenda.

Only one poster on this thread thought so...

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: Sturmpionier

I feel like Porky Pig in that Robin Hood spoof where everything that Daffy (Robin Hood) does winds up looking silly. Daffy is totally into it, but Porky is just laughing until he cries.

I'm starting to get the giggles again, so signing off for now,

Friar Duck

p.s. I think I will have to stop reading this thread before I have a stroke from the hilarity.

Ho! Ha! He! Dodge! Parry! Spin! Thrust! Pwanngg!!!! And he was using a buck and a quarter quarter staff![:D]

[Sturmpionier]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

None of the OOB designers had any sort of "anti-" anything agenda.

Only one poster on this thread thought so...

Good gravy! I think I am going to DIE from laughter. I don't post that often, but man this is the best one I have seen in a while. My point, originally, wasn't so much about 'rudeness' (although some nationalism carried us there) but about the absurdity of how it was put forward. More importantly, if someone can put Omegaall's hat on my head and then my head on Oleg Mastruko's body, you would have a world-beater avatar.


I just think it's funny that someone would monkey w/ video game attributes in order to prove a political point.

"I'll show those Communist Chinese who's boss. Ha! 30 morale ought to prove the folly of state-run agriculture."

I mean come on, this is funny stuff.


BTW I have officially died from laughter.