Game only recognizes devices 250 and 251 for build purposes

[michaelm75au]

I just tried a simple test.

(1) A LCU with 100 x Motorised Support and 50 x Rifle sqds: No building; MS only supplies support of 100.
(2) A LCU with 100 x Motorised Support and 50 x Engineers: Builds up base; MS supplies support of 100, and vehicles to engineers. But does not show up as engineer vehicles in base info screen though. The use of vehicles is inferred from the increased building activity of engineers if ordinary Support was used in place of MS.

[edit]
Rather than Motorised Support it should be called Engineering Support.[:D]
Michael

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I just tried a simple test.

(1) A LCU with 100 x Motorised Support and 50 x Rifle sqds: No building; MS only supplies support of 100.
(2) A LCU with 100 x Motorised Support and 50 x Engineers: Builds up base; MS supplies support of 100, and vehicles to engineers. But does not show up as engineer vehicles in base info screen though. The use of vehicles is inferred from the increased building activity of engineers if ordinary Support was used in place of MS.

[edit]
Rather than Motorised Support it should be called Engineering Support.[:D]
Michael

Are you sure that in the second test it was the MS as well as the engineers doing the building? Wouldn't a third test be needed to prove it - LCU with no MS and 50 Engineers - then compare the construction rate with test 2?

Then there may be another test needed - what if the MS are added to a different unit (that does not contain any engineers) - do they still contribute to construction if a unit with engineers is present?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

What units have 253 Mot Spt now? I don't think it is many.

In CHS ...I just checked....a GRAND TOTAL of nine units:

The 192 & 194 US Tnk Bn
The Prov. FA Group
The 58th, %9th & 69th Soviet Tank Bdes
The 239th & 69th Soviet motorized Bde.
The Middle East Base Force


I'm just goinbg to change these to Regular Support...Problem solved for CHS.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Are you sure that in the second test it was the MS as well as the engineers doing the building? Wouldn't a third test be needed to prove it - LCU with no MS and 50 Engineers - then compare the construction rate with test 2?

I ran this test and it is the Motorized Support.

Then there may be another test needed - what if the MS are added to a different unit (that does not contain any engineers) - do they still contribute to construction if a unit with engineers is present?

I haven't run this test...

[EDIT] Tested second Hypothesis: Motorized support in Units with out engineers do not contribute to the build rate.


Test 1 Give 71st Res Div at Tug., Phillipines 12 251-Engineers, and 1000 253 -Motorized Support. The Motorized Support being Type-25 Vehicle. Set to Expand Fort - reads - Fort 3 Build 0%. Run one turn. Now reads Fort 3 Build 18%.

Test 2 Give 71st Res Div at Tug., Phillipines 12 251-Engineers, and 1000 253 -Motorized Support. The Motorized Support being Type 22-AFV. Set to Expand Fort - reads - Fort 3 Build 0%. Run one turn. Now reads Fort 3 Build 1%.

Test 3 Give 71st Res Div at Tug., Phillipines 6 251-Engineers, and a new unit in the same hex was given 1000 253 -Motorized Support. The Motorized Support being Type-25 Vehicle. Set to Expand Fort - reads - Fort 3 Build 0%. Run one turn. Now reads Fort 3 Build 0%.



From private discussions I am now firmly convinced that Devices 250 and 251 are triggers. If either are present the total number of type 24 and Type 25 devices within the unit are used for build calculations.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

What units have 253 Mot Spt now? I don't think it is many.

In CHS ...I just checked....a GRAND TOTAL of nine units:

The 192 & 194 US Tnk Bn
The Prov. FA Group
The 58th, %9th & 69th Soviet Tank Bdes
The 239th & 69th Soviet motorized Bde.
The Middle East Base Force


I'm just goinbg to change these to Regular Support...Problem solved for CHS.

But still begs the question of what advantage there is to Motorized Support vs. Regular Support? Why was it included in the game? Are there additional benefits, say, for increased movement of motor/mechanized units, etc....? Maybe we should re-examine why all those type 251 engineers are organic in combat formations? A good example are the 18 type 251 assigned to the US Inf Divisions?

[Captain Cruft]

Apart from the engineering side effect there is no difference between Support and Motorized Support. The extra speed of armoured units is determined by their type.

Motorized support is however much "heavier" to transport by ship. It loads slow too. If you change the armoured units to use Support instead they will be much easier to transport.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Apart from the engineering side effect there is no difference between Support and Motorized Support. The extra speed of armoured units is determined by their type.

Motorized support is however much "heavier" to transport by ship. It loads slow too. If you change the armoured units to use Support instead they will be much easier to transport.

Motorized support is however much "heavier" to transport by ship. It loads slow too. If you change the armoured units to use Support instead they will be much easier to transport.

In looking at the units in CHS the 192 and 194 Tank battalions and the FA Group are the only units that would be impacted by a change to regular support. Further examination showed they have no intrinsic engineers so if they have Motrized Support the engineer effect will not kick in for them. Hence there is no need to mod these units. I need to check the Mid East Base Force...And for now I'm not going to check the Soviets...

[Aawulf]

In response to the original issue about combat engineers not functioning as engineers, I replaced one squad of Cbt Engr's with a squad of Engr's in all of the affected units when I was banging my head over this a couple months ago and it has been a reasonable work around.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Yet another issue is that Motorized Support (device 253) is defined as Vehicle, which makes it act as engineering vehicles. Your tank units therefore become uber construction units.

Are you sure of this? Some ART units have nothing but guns and motorized support (which I assume represents trucks and artillery tractors to tow the guns around). According to your post these units also have organic engineering capability?

Strange, but perhaps not totally wrong... I guess artillery should have some capability to dig in....

O.

We dug alot of gun pits. That does not make me an engineer, just a gunner who likes a bit of protection if not moving around fromposition to position.

[el cid again]

Also, after looking, I would like to know how the game knows that Support should function as it does, since it is just defined as Squad, like everything else. Hard-wired slot number perhaps?

Bingo! You got it right. I wanted to create a "civil support" unit - and failed when testing revealed NO OTHER slots work. There is no field I can see even in hidden fields in the record. So it is hard coded. There are two support slots: support and motorized support. Copying them does no good at all. The copy will not support! [But it will eat supplies of course].

[el cid again]

Apart from the engineering side effect there is no difference between Support and Motorized Support. The extra speed of armoured units is determined by their type.

Motorized support is however much "heavier" to transport by ship. It loads slow too. If you change the armoured units to use Support instead they will be much easier to transport.

quote:

Motorized support is however much "heavier" to transport by ship. It loads slow too. If you change the armoured units to use Support instead they will be much easier to transport.

In looking at the units in CHS the 192 and 194 Tank battalions and the FA Group are the only units that would be impacted by a change to regular support. Further examination showed they have no intrinsic engineers so if they have Motrized Support the engineer effect will not kick in for them. Hence there is no need to mod these units. I need to check the Mid East Base Force...And for now I'm not going to check the Soviets...

_____________________________

I am not sure what is being proposed here? But in logistic discussion threads, I thought we concluded that MORE logistic difficulty needs to be built in. Making armor easier to load is not my idea of moving in the right direction. I have carefully forced ALL motorized units to have motorized support for this reason. I don't want it to be easy to load a heavy force.