Aircraft Weapons, their Pro Allied slant in WiTP

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Big B

Yes The Zeroes did such a superior job at Midway - the Japs only lost ALL their Carriers! Bravo!!!

I've consistently seen US quarterbacks playing football throw for 300-400 yards yet the team still gets stomped.

Everybody agrees the ME-262 was a wonder weapon but the Germans lost the war...

So yes the Zero could have performed outstandingly at Midway and through luck and other circumstances...lack of intelligence, no radar , poor tactics (ie use of only one search plane per route), bad communications the japanese would still get stomped.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: treespider

japanese would still get stomped.

Of course - the outcome of the war was never in question once USA and Russia entered it!

The Japanese lost the war the minute they decided to attack USA - Germany, similarly, lost the war the minute Hitler decided to attack Russia...


Leo "Apollo11"

[mdiehl]

Wow, its obvious you have never served as aircrew anywhere. You have no understanding of the variables that account for aircrew performance. Fatigue is insidious.

Wow. You obviously have no understanding of the records of movement or deployment of either the IJN or the USN in the 1941-1942 time frame. There is no basis for claiming that the main Strike Force pilots had been in more continuos action than those on the USN's big 4 after January 1942. Pilot fatigue is not an adequate or rational explanation (under the circumstances) for the outcomes of the CV engagements.

Having that longer range can also be a serious disadvantage, especially when damaged.

OK. I think we're talking past each other here. I said specifically the CV vs CV engagements. In these engagements, both sides operated from identical ranges, typically less than 210 miles. I'm specifically NOT talking about 11th Air Fleet at Rabaul attacking the aircraft and positions at Lunga.

In the CARRIER combats, the F4Fs shot down about 10%-20% more Zekes than they lost in F4Fs. In the CARRIER combats, they occurred at ranges that (in the case of Midway) worked against the F4Fs.

Therfore, since the F4Fs acquitted themselves better against the Zero than vice versa, despite adverse conditions working against the F4Fs, it is clear that the F4F victories anywhere can't just be attributed to "handicaps against the Japanese." See? When the USN VF F4F pilots had to accommodate the same handicaps, they still beat the Japanese A6Ms.

Returning to the Lunga 11th Air Fleet battles. Yes, the Japanese pilots had to deal with longer flights and thus fatigue. One very clear advantage that they HAD, however, was that once clear of the combat area they were out of threat. On returning to Rabaul they had hot water showers, plenty of food, clean (if spartan) accommodations, and no fears of attack. In contrast, US pilots stationed at Henderson had inadequate food, poor accommodations, were subject to harassing artillery fire during the day, naval bombardment at night, the sounds of pitched battles fought initially less than 1 km from their position, and at times Japanese infiltrators.

Is it your contention that the US pilots and Henderson field were not also suffering from substantial fatigue? If so, that is a fairly unusual claim, IMO.

[Speedysteve]

This is brilliant! The forum has been too quiet of late [:D]

[treespider]

We all want a historically accurate game - that is the point. As is, the Americans will always loose to the Japanese in a recreated carrier battle in 1942.

You can certainly recreate Midway in the game. Place the Japanese bombers in the carrier fleet on Airfield Attack. Place one group on search at 10% with say a 20% cap by some of the fighters, 3-4 hexes away position a US Carrier Fleet.


The difference between the game and history is we all anticpate a midway and so defend against it happening. Even still I've seen any number of AAR where midway's still occur and like in history they generally stem from one side or the other being more aggressive than they should.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl


In the CARRIER combats, the F4Fs shot down about 10%-20% more Zekes than they lost in F4Fs. In the CARRIER combats, they occurred at ranges that (in the case of Midway) worked against the F4Fs.

Coral Sea A6M vs. F4F losses vs. each other:

F4F - 6
A6M - 3

(the majority of the F4F losses occured over their own carriers.)

Eastern Solomons:

F4F - 6
A6M - 6

Santa Cruz:

F4F 16
A6M 10

(Midway already mentioned....All but one CV F4F was shot down over their carrier....range working against the F4F? Carrier F4F's always shooting down 10-20% more Zeros? )

(Source: Lundstrom)

One very clear advantage that they HAD, however, was that once clear of the combat area they were out of threat. On returning to Rabaul they had hot water showers, plenty of food, clean (if spartan) accommodations, and no fears of attack.

LoL....lets see you try it. You will have to fly near daily missions of a total length of 1000+ miles for hours on end, for a period of weeks or months. Dont forget you then have to engage in combat and then fly all the way back to base...if your wounded or damaged....worse still. Now compare yourself to a pilot who only had to scramble and fight over his own base for 20-40 minutes then land where he too received the best rations and acomidations because the grunts in the trenches knew they were their first line of defense. The pilots did not have to dig trenches, they did not service their aircraft. They rested, conserving their energy for a short fight.

Is it your contention that the US pilots and Henderson field were not also suffering from substantial fatigue? If so, that is a fairly unusual claim, IMO.

lol As Frank pointed out, their "fatigue" was not nearly as great as the Japanese, which was why he mentions this specifically in his conclusion.

[treespider]

Would you trade 1x damaged CV "Shokaku" + 1x untouched CV "Zuikaku" vs 1x sunk CV "Lexington" and 1x damaged CV "Yorktown"?

You forgot about the Shoho.

[treespider]

So if you mentally subtract Arashio from the equation (giving McCluskey no ship to intuit), you also shouldprobably subtract Strike Force's course change... and that puts McCluskey AND all the other SBDs on target at abot the same time that Kido Butai is shooting down the inbvound from Midway strikes. Only in this case the USN strike probably arrives as a coordinated strike of 3 USN CVs worth of SBDs, TBDs, and F4Fs.

But then would all of the Jap. Cap have gone to the deck?

[Nikademus]

A word on the "paradise" at Rabaul. It was as rife with Malaria as any other island in the South Pacific.

The US conducted a survey of the disease rate at Rabaul after the war. As an example; between 1/43 - 10/43, the monthly percentage of non-effectives due to Malaria ranged between 12.5 and 22.5%. Men stricken by other illnesses accounted for another 8.7 - 12.3% The high point during this segment was in May: 38.8%. A total of 4,400+ men died of illness there during the Japanese occupation, more than combat fatalities.

Yep...a paradise...go back lean on the lawn chair and hope you dont get bitten. Its a long flight too and back if your malarial.

[mdiehl]

LoL....lets see you try it. You will have to fly near daily missions of a total length of 1000+ miles for hours on end, for a period of weeks or months. Dont forget you then have to engage in combat and then fly all the way back to base...if your wounded or damaged....worse still. Now compare yourself to a pilot who only had to scramble and fight over his own base for 20-40 minutes then land where he too received the best rations and acomidations because the grunts in the trenches knew they were their first line of defense. The pilots did not have to dig trenches, they did not service their aircraft. They rested, conserving their energy for a short fight.

Why would I compare myself to such a pilot? It would be an inappropriate comparison. Were I to run such a test, I'd compare myself to a pilot who was randomly and intermittently shot at by a sniper at least once a day when moving from his quarters to his ready room, and who was randomly targeted by artillery and aerial bombs at least once each day and each night. And every two weeks I'd throw in a 30 minute to 2 hour bombardment from calibers ranging from 125-350mm and let him spend the night in a water filled slit trench with the corpse of someone who did not quite make it to the trench in time.

And when that pilot got "the best rations" it would be a half-ration of cold C-rations augmented by some mealy captured Japanese rice and canned monkey meat. Contrasted with the Japanese pilot who gets a full ration of his nation's best.

lol As Frank pointed out, their "fatigue" was not nearly as great as the Japanese, which was why he mentions this specifically in his conclusion.

I don't recall him specifically made the claim that their fatigue was not as great as the Japanese fatigue owing to circumstances. I recall him saying that when American units broke down they were rotated out. But that does not mean that on any given morning the Japanese pilot who'd just flown for 3 hours was any more fatigued than the American pilot who'd had 3 hours of restless sleep the previous night when the shelling stopped.

If Frank DID make the claim that somehow the conditions at Lunga were conducive to the maintenance of well rested, well fed pilots (which I doubt he did), he'd be wrong.

[treespider]

In the CARRIER combats, the F4Fs shot down about 10%-20% more Zekes than they lost in F4Fs. In the CARRIER combats, they occurred at ranges that (in the case of Midway) worked against the F4Fs.

What portion of that 10-20% is attributable to radar?

[mdiehl]

But then would all of the Jap. Cap have gone to the deck?

Perhaps not. But they'd have to fight their way through the USN F4F escorts, who under these altered circumstances would have outnumbered the CAP. I think the ultimate outcome would be more Zekes downed in combat, more F4Fs downed in combat, and a smattering of other Allied types downed in combat. You'd still have far more SBDs over the target than historically and some of the TBDs would get their shots in at ranges conducive to a hit.

[11Bravo]

So the long flights decreased their exposure to malaria? Sounds like another Jap advantage. I'll bet Frank missed that one. And Japs were physically shorter people with commensurate less body surface area. This would also contribute to less mosquito bites and lower malaria rates. Maybe the 1.6202 patch will correct that.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Why would I compare myself to such a pilot? It would be an inappropriate comparison.

No it wouldn't. It would show you the difference between having to fight and fly over a 1000 mile trip vs. sitting on the ground rested and waiting

I don't recall him specifically made the claim that their fatigue was not as great as the Japanese fatigue owing to circumstances.

Yes, I've long been aware of your selective reading impediment. You should have that looked at sometime.

If Frank DID make the claim that somehow the conditions at Lunga were conducive to the maintenance of well rested, well fed pilots (which I doubt he did), he'd be wrong.

Its also interesting that when a source is reputed to support something you are claiming, its indisputable....anyone who disagrees is an Axis Fanboy. If it does'nt....well then, the author is obviously wrong. [:D]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: 11Bravo

So the long flights decreased their exposure to malaria? Sounds like another Jap advantage. I'll bet Frank missed that one. And Japs were physically shorter people with commensurate less body surface area. This would also contribute to less mosquito bites and lower malaria rates. Maybe the 1.6202 patch will correct that.

You get added to my Xmas card list for that one. [:D]

[mdiehl]

This is why war is unpredictable... so many "what if" and "could have" / "would have" possibilities outcomes of which we will never know...

I agree. The problem with the "US won Midway because of 'luck'" line of reasoning is that it mostly attributes good US command decisions to luck and bad US command decisions to bad decision making, and it wholly ignores the underlying fact that the Japanese plan was just a bad plan.

From my POV the "luck" experienced by the USN at Midway could hardly have been worse, and if it were (McCluskey does not find Strike Force) I think the Japanese still lose two CVs. After that it still leaves the Japanese facing down 3 US CVs (with both sides short their full complement of planes) and a still-operational land airbase.

IMO if you want a Japanese win there to be plausible you have to take the IJN CVs out of the rear force and the Aleutians diversionary force and put them right there at Midway with the rest. But that's a whole different operational plan. And in that event I still think the Japanese lose 2-3 CVs for a US loss of 2-3 CVs.

[11Bravo]

I really shouldn't have drunk my lunch today. I'll be quiet now.

[Nikademus]

Can i have some....i have to go to the surgeon today and find out what he messed up on....

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

This is why war is unpredictable... so many "what if" and "could have" / "would have" possibilities outcomes of which we will never know...

I agree. The problem with the "US won Midway because of 'luck'" line of reasoning is that it mostly attributes good US command decisions to luck and bad US command decisions to bad decision making, and it wholly ignores the underlying fact that the Japanese plan was just a bad plan.

Nothing was as bad as utterly complex Japanese Midway plan... what unecessary dispersion of forces all over the battlefield...

If we would make "top list" of bad WWII battle plans - Japanese Midway plan would seriously contest #1 place!


Leo "Apollo11"

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: 11Bravo

So the long flights decreased their exposure to malaria? Sounds like another Jap advantage. I'll bet Frank missed that one. And Japs were physically shorter people with commensurate less body surface area. This would also contribute to less mosquito bites and lower malaria rates. Maybe the 1.6202 patch will correct that.

ROFL [:D][:D][:D]

Post of the week... [&o]

O.