US enters game vs Germany kinda weird

[Fallshirmjager]

After pearl harbour the japs and the states were at war. But the US and germany werent yet. on Dec. 11 1941, Germany declared war against the United States. Roosevelt then asked the Congress to recognize the stae of war between Germany and the states and then he declared war on italy also. it doesnt seem historically accurate cause Hitler declared war not FDR. And if the game is supposed to offer an alternate timeline for ww2 it doesnt seem cool to throw the states at germany. Hilers biggest mistake was declaring war against the worlds biggest industiral power, specially before he wrapped up russia. it'd be allright if the states was still a neutral to germany, but with the option to attack and vice versa type deal.

[mcaryf]

The reason Hitler declared war was because effectively they were already at war in the Atlantic and the US shipping supplies to the UK and Russia was his main concern. He also did not want to let the US finish off the Japanese whilst only fighting on one front.

If you look at the enormous losses of US and Allied shipping to U-Boats off the Eastern seaboard of the US in the first 6 months of 1942 then you can see that they nearly crippled the Allies shipping capacity. It was touch and go whether Russia would keep fighting in Summer 1942 and at that time the Allied shipments were absolutely vital. Soviet history downplays the impact but if you look at the quantities of tanks and planes successfully shipped to Russia you see a different story - the German success off the Eastern seaboard very nearly stopped those shipments from happening.

I do not actually think Hitler had much choice about going to war with the US at that time. The people who had a choice were the Japanese - an attack just on the "Imperialist's colonies" could have made FDR's decisions very much tougher. However, I suspect he would have been able to manufacture a Gulf of Tonkin type incident to join the war against Japan and there are some stories about US shipping being sent to the likely Japanese attack routes in the South China Sea in Dec 1941 so that an incident could be arranged.

Just as an extra comment, it is interesting to note that the major nations who actually declared war did pretty badly out of it. The two big winners - the SU and USA were both attacked rather than declared war themselves. The Japanese tried to declare war but their US embassy were a bit slow, Hitler, Mussolini, the British and French all declared war at some stage and all came out of the war in a much worse state than the US and SU.

Mike

[Fallshirmjager]

The US wasnt "effectively" at war with germany directly untill war between the two were declared by hitler and recognized by fdr in dec 1941. they supplied britain and any nation fighting germany with materials for defense purposes untill then. merchant shipping from united states still sailed into german occupied ports up untill the declaration by hitler. as for the uboat war in the atlantic the germans still abided by the states declaration of neutrality. they complied by the same code regarding the sinking of the merchant shipping as they did in world war 1. they would only sink non british ships that they suspected of having contraband cargo- weapons ammo type deal. from war's start in 1939 thru December 1941, American ships could still sail the world's oceans to the allied nations without being attacked by German U-Boats except for the first US ship to be sunk by a uboat, the uss rueben james. u-552 sunk it on oct 31 1941 more than a month before japan attacked the states and hitler declared war. roosevelt didnt really want to get involved directly into the european theatre he thought of it as a european problem but as for the japanese attack at PH it was personal. the japanese attacked the states cause fdr froze their assets and suspended relations because they were a threat to the dutch indies and the philipines. FDR didnt get the jap declaration odf war untill a half hour after the pearl attack thats why the states went after them off the hop and didnt say boo to germany. and besides even though the conscription bill was passed in sept 1940. the states wouldnt get directly involved unless they were threatened...pearl harbour. the states even froze germanys and italys assets in june 41 yet no war and emposed an oil embargo on aggressor states in august 41. and if you dont believe me bout this check out any time line or grab a copy of world war 2 mag. on dec 8 41 the US and britian dually declared war against Japan. no war against germany though. it wasnt untill the 11 when hitler proclaimed war that the states were officially at war. from some article s i read FDR i guess was actually glad that hitler made that blunder. after ww1 and the devastation and reperation of europe and the money the US lent to the weimar republic, the pre nazi parliament, FDR was afraid that the congress wouldnt allow him to declare war on germany. and it wasnt untill mid 43 to late 43 the US had any appreciable impact in the eorpean theatre anyways. yeah your right about shipping losses being the highest in 42 its because the east coast of thr atlantic was considered by doenitz and hitler as the juggler for the heart of materials going to russia thru murmansk and to the UK.

[Fallshirmjager]

and to summarize it all in a nut shell...if germany declared war in real life why then is the US at it with germany when the Japs attack the wallies. i dont know it doesnt seem logical because i d want to delay war with the states as long as possible if im playing germany and if my partner playing the japs wants to attack the yanks go ahead i got enough headaches with the british and soviets if thier ok players. alls im suggesting is that if the japanese attack the wallies say in fall 41 the east atlantic coast of the us is still politically frozen untill winter 43. i dont mean the mainland i just mean the waters so troops and units couldnt go through but they couldnt move into canada either i guess. i dont know its just a gripe i gotta live with or the guys at 2by3 could adjust.

[lkendter]

I agree the entry method is a bit odd for the US.

However, if we made it historical would *any* Germany player *ever* declare war on USA? I think the answer is no, and Germany would never be at war with the USA.

[toddtreadway]

Personally, I would like some sort of US-Axis tension table, similar to Advanced Third Reich.

Maybe even the USSR-Axis tension table as well.

This would give the game some added variability.

If you wanted to be even more flexible, add an appeasement table and start the game in '39.

[Fallshirmjager]

tension table would be cool so would the appeasement table also. i agree with ya todd. a fall 39 start would be good, that'd let you build up for a blitzin of france and let you prepare for sept 15 1940, hitlers expected date for the execution of operation sea lion. plus if victory conditions required engaging the states war would be automatic.

[mcaryf]

I guess it depends what you want out of GGWAW. If it is a game with "what if's" then I understand you suggesting that Germany do not declare on USA. However, if you want it to mirror what was probably the best of some bad choices for Hitler in Dec 1941 then he has to declare war. It was also incidentally the preferred option for the US to fight Germany then as well.

If you want to make it an interesting game option with no DOW then you have to allow fairly massive flows of lend lease supplies to both SU and Britain and probably complete weapon systems as well to proceed from the US with Germany not able to interdict.

If you are interested in the actual policy of the US government at the time I suggest you study the US War Plans established in mid-1941 in joint discussions with the British. These agreed a policy of Germany first even to the extent of effectively recognising that The Philippines would be given up. You can usually turn up these plans and comments about them on the web by searching for ABC-1 (the Germany first plan) or Rainbow War Plans (the preceding plans). The underlying reason for Germany First was that if the British went down to the Germans the US was worried that a puppet British Government might hand over some or all of the Royal Navy to the Axis. That together with the rest of the French Fleet would give the Axis superior naval forces in the North Atlantic creating a genuine threat to the Eastern Seaboard.

Mike

[Harrybanana]

My understanding is that the US was doing a little more in 1941 then just sending lend lease supplies to the UK and USSR. In fact the US had been escorting ships bound for the UK to a "Mid-Ocean Meeting Point" (MOMP for short) since Sept 1941. 1 US destroyer was destroyed and another damaged by the Germans during this "Quasi War". Even if the Japanese had not bombed Pearl Harbour I believe the US would have been at full war with the Germans before the end of 1942. Of course the is just 1 man's opinion and we will never really know.

[toddtreadway]

Another cool feature that could be implemented with a tension table would be that the US production could be geared to it, the amount of supplies it could send each turn could be limited, certain areas could unfreeze allowing the release of certain ships when tensions got higher, etc. This is something that I think would at least make a very cool option.

Similar features could be built into a USSR-Axis tension table.

And if you wanted to go all the way, go back to a '39 start with an appeasement table that might allow Germany to ignore the Western Allies for an extended period, similar to the boardgame Totaler Krieg. Such an entry system using tables such as these would also somewhat obviate the need for a more detailed diplomacy system.

[Fallshirmjager]

Bottom line about the what ifs in the game and mirroring Hitler's choices are summed up on the World at War site go there and youll find this in the intro for the game-"But with Gary Grigsby’s World at War™ , things may turn out different. The Western Allies may be conquered by Germany, or Japan may defeat China. With you at the controls, leading the fates of nations and alliances, anything is possible in this new strategic offering from Matrix Games and 2 by 3 Games." thats right from the horses mouth-ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. and as for the rainbow plans they jumped from 1-5 from 38 till dec 41. and they were only theoretical anyways-it was ultimately up to Roosevelt. and yeah it provided that the states would enter into action if Germany defeated the british. the luftwaffe was defeated in september 40 and by spring 41 they new Sea Lion wasnt taking place and Hitler was massing the wehrmacht in Poland and eastern Europe for Barborossa, another reason FDR didnt want to get involved. the brits and the states figured on Germany and Russia exhausting themselves and then when the time was right the allies would get involved and replace dictatorships that were currently in place at the time with western style democracies. another reason they entered is the govt's knew about the genocide taking place prior to the war . the rainbow plans called for a defensive stance in the pacific anyways and thats where the attack came from ironically- not germany. Hitler invited the States into the european theatre regardless of ABC or the rainbow plans. FDR thought of it as a european problem and he wanted to keep it that way for as long as possible and regardless if the states was gearing for war prior to 1940 the ABC states that the US would use a majority of their force for defense purposes in N. America but still send materials for the defense of britain. and as for the US destroyer being sunk i already mentioned it in my last post it was the uss reuben james and went belly up on 0ct 31 of 41 and the states still didnt declare war on germany. the reason hitler declared war on the states is because of one of his beliefs in Japan as being the ally that has never been defeated in 1500 years. im offering suggestions to make the game have more directions then just the states come in and stomp all over everything. if you want to be narrow minded and not have options fine- i dont. but dont try and make me look like an idiot by researching the rainbow plans and throwing that at me i knew about it before i posted my first thread. Im not Hitler and i dont want to mirror any of his bad mistakes, if i wanted to do that i grow that stupid mustache he sported. Alls i want is more options thats all. and if you dont like them you can always turn those settings to off.

[SeaMonkey]

Just to enlighten this bunch........what you all are asking for, or not, will be taken care of....its called "Strategic Command 2 Blitzkrieg".

Be forewarned.[;)]

[mcaryf]

Hi Fallshirmjager

I am sorry you took some exception to my post, I was merely trying to comment on your suggestion that FDR regarded the war with Germany as just a European thing. I did not agree with that because the published documents make it absolutely clear that the US recognised it would have to fight Germany one day and it was better to do it whilst the UK and Russia were still there to help.

However, setting that on one side and just looking at GGWAW as a game. It is about what ifs but within fairly sensibly contained boundaries. For example one of the big questions about WW2 was what if Franco joined the Axis - not an option in GGWAW unless Spain is attacked. What if the Nazi Soviet pact lasted longer and Stalin took out India, what if the Western Allies had gone to war with the SU over Finland which they were planning to do for a while. There were many other possibilities that GGWAW does not try to offer because part of its strength is its relatively simple handling of some potentially complex possibilities. You might have to try HOI or some such if you want to explore those.

Looking at your actual suggestion that the US might be at war with Japan but not Germany. You suggest this could be implemented by keeping some sea areas off the Easter Seaboard frozen. The problem here is that the area where the Axis is most likely fighting the Western Allies is the Middle East which can be reached via either East or West coast of the US. Since the Western Allies are jointly fighting the Japanese their forces can occupy the same locations which might then be attacked by German or Japanese units. For example US units could travel round the world and sit in British ports or land regions.

I think your suggestion would add a lot of complexity to the game and might not even be possible to implement without a whole raft of fairly strange restrictions on where US sourced units could go.

The option of getting the Japanese to hold off attacking the US does already give some elements of what you want. Allowing the Japanese to attack just the British is another option that was available in the real world but that would seriously effect the game and I think it is reasonable that that should not be allowed.

Mike

[Fallshirmjager]

re: mike
after reading the last paragraph of yer post youve made me see the light of day as to how it would be goofy cause of the way the games designed. but i still believe in what i believe and im goin g to butt heads with you on the spanish being invovled on the axis side. im going to say they were and heres my proof: the Division Azul, the Spanish Blue Division.
47000 spanish volunteers joined the wehrmacht the first volunteers being trained in germany on july 17 , 1941. by november 1 they were seeing action on the eastern front. one azul battalion took the russian towns posselok, possad and otenski on november 8. in addition to infantry five spanish fighter squadrons took part in combat on the east front flying messerschmidts and focke wulfs. they downwed 156 russian planes but lost 21 pilots. the allies were pressuring franco to withdraw his forces from russia with threats of oil embargos and food shortages and an invasion of spanish colonies in north africa so finally after all that on sept 23 1943 franco recalle dthe blue divisionand also because the tide was turning on germany. there was a bunch of diehards that stayed fighting about 2133 called the blue legion, they fought untill march 21 1944. another interesting fact is that 250 spanish fascists joined the waffen SS but went down fighting in berlin in 45 at the reichstag. another tid bit of info is that ribbentrop wanted to bomb madrid to force franco from power and repalce him with the commander of the blue division general munos grandes but this never happened.

[mcaryf]

Hi Fallshirmjager

I was aware of the Blue Division but not to the level of info that you provided - thanks for that.

Whilst I guess the Germans were pleased to get the Blue Division, what they really wanted was for Franco to let them get at Gibraltar to turf the British out. Hitler tried to bribe Franco with promises of French territory in Africa but Franco managed to avoid getting involved by saying he would need so much oil and so many weapons etc before he could formally join. Hitler said afterwards he would rather have his teeth pulled out than negotiate with Franco again!

Another nation that sent volunteers to fight but did not join WW2 was Sweden when they were assisting Finland against the Russian winter attack in 1939. They also let trainloads of German troops go through to fight the Russians in 1941.

I have a quiz question that I enjoy asking people who know a bit about WW2, I will give the answer in another post if nobody gets it right. Which nation sent substantial forces to fight against all the major countries, except the Chinese, involved in WW2 . Just to clarify the major nations would be The British, The French, The Germans, The Italians, The Russians, The Americans and the Japanese.

Mike

[Fallshirmjager]

mike id have to say france?

[mcaryf]

Hi Fallshirmjager

Yup you got it - the fact that the French fought themselves (Gaullists v Vichy at Dakar etc) to qualify as having fought all the major powers often confuses people. Many French volunteers served in the Charlemagne unit of the Waffen SS versus the Russians and late in the war the BB Richelieu was sent to join the Allied fleets attacking Japan.

Mike