In Praise of Ron, Pasternaski and Tristan

[DuckofTindalos]

That's how I interpreted his last post.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Mike,

Don't you think they were rude sometimes though? More so TJ I guess.

Regards,

Steven

Yea, I'll be the first to admit that TJ was a sucker for "having his chain yanked" and would sometimes go overboard in defending his postion. He had/has no patience with fools, and he often felt those he "crossed swords" with were. Some were, some weren't..., but TJ was always sure he was right (and most often was) that he couldn't seem to grasp that even someone who was wrong could still be sincere in their point of view. Needless to say, this kicked of some truely "epic" wars of words.....

[Speedysteve]

Couldn't have put it better Mike (except maybe the part where you say he was almost always right [;)])

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Couldn't have put it better Mike (except maybe the part where you say he was almost always right [;)])

Well, I almost always found myself in agreement with his basic arguement (if not the way he was making it), so he must have been right pretty often. I ceertainly am...[sic]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Yea, I'll be the first to admit that TJ was a sucker for "having his chain yanked" and would sometimes go overboard in defending his postion. He had/has no patience with fools, and he often felt those he "crossed swords" with were. Some were, some weren't..., but TJ was always sure he was right (and most often was) that he couldn't seem to grasp that even someone who was wrong could still be sincere in their point of view. Needless to say, this kicked of some truely "epic" wars of words.....

I'll admit i crossed swords with him on occasion. However, he seemed to be less aggressive and more calm when arguing with him in a way that i tried to make sure was not demeaning or insulting. By the end of the discussion, when he realized that i wasn't out to hammer him, he rather gracefully disengaged.

I guess sometimes people will post inflammatory posts just to get a discussion going. It's hard to tell if they are doing it out of design, or something else, and sometimes things will manage to push a hot button of mine, but i *try* (with varying degrees of success) to keep insults, etc. out of it. Others may not agree with this attitude, which is of course their right with the (relatively) free speach on the forum - and of course, it is the varying opinions and attitudes which can make this forum so entertaining, enjoyable and occasionally exasperating![:D]

[Nomad]

I didn't have a problem with TJs objections to the game, it was the way he expressed them that seem to get on my nerves and I think others also. Way back in UV days his cry of "everything is broken, scrape the whole thing and start over" was not taken kindly. [:)] Again, I do not think he intended to be 'abrasive' he just came across that way in his postings. But then I admit that on some occasions he really got to me and I posted things I probably shouldn't have. But I have been wrong before. He had some very valid points but he tended to talk about what was wrong and nothing about how it might be fixed.

'Ski certainly got fed up and just faded away.

Ron, I have seen around a couple time lately.

I would hate to think that the miinority view gets stomped on since I think I have one also. WitP is NOT the game I was hoping for and that there are a huge number of design decisions that defy common sense( to me anyway). I still play the game and have fun but I do sometimes think about how wonderful this game could have been. So do not think that everyone here is just plumb happy with WitP as it stands. I am just realist enough to know that what is wrong with the game has about zero chance of being changed. I just hope they can and will find the bugs and get rid of them, but even there I think we might be out of luck.

Time for some and mellow out time.

[bradfordkay]

I miss them as well, but not one aspect of their posts: the constant harping on the fact that the game was rotten at its core. Once it was obvious that this was the game as designed, continuing to loudly proclaim that the game was unplayable without a complete overhaul of the game engine was counterproductive. Offering ideas for improvement within the game engine is another story...

I agreed with many of the complaints about game details, but have never believed that insulting the whole product is the way to get results. Pasternakski decided that the game wasn't for him. I'm sorry to see him gone, but can respect his decision.

[rtrapasso]

WitP is NOT the game I was hoping for and that there are a huge number of design decisions that defy common sense( to me anyway). I still play the game and have fun but I do sometimes think about how wonderful this game could have been. So do not think that everyone here is just plumb happy with WitP as it stands. I am just realist enough to know that what is wrong with the game has about zero chance of being changed. I just hope they can and will find the bugs and get rid of them, but even there I think we might be out of luck.

I agree with you here wholeheartedly.

I would hate to think that the miinority view gets stomped on since I think I have one also.

Well, i hate to think it too - but i think it is true.

If i were off work, i might join you in your .

[rtrapasso]

I miss them as well, but not one aspect of their posts: the constant harping on the fact that the game was rotten at its core. Once it was obvious that this was the game as designed, continuing to loudly proclaim that the game was unplayable without a complete overhaul of the game engine was counterproductive.

Perhaps, but realizing "the game was rotten at its core" has inspired at least a few people to think about doing a revamp to the game engine, etc. So, i don't believe it is *entirely* counterproductive.

I think by expressing that the "the game was rotten at its core", it touched a sore point on players who love and play the game. Sort of like being in love with a rotten person - you might realize that the person is horrible, rotten, etc., but if someone tells you that, your first reaction might be to want to punch them in the nose.

I think these three got punched in the nose on the forum (a lot!)

[DuckofTindalos]

But they DID stick their noses so very far forward...

[Bradley7735]

Yeah, I miss those guys a lot of the time (especially Pasternaski. He's funny). But, the knife cuts both ways. When was the last time Kid posted a lot on this forum. WITP lost a good asset when he dropped out.

I don't know for sure, but I think he stopped his active posting because of the people who complained so much.

[patrickl]

Hi,

Kid is a good man. But I think he sometimes take things too seriously.[;)]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Yeah, I miss those guys a lot of the time (especially Pasternaski. He's funny). But, the knife cuts both ways. When was the last time Kid posted a lot on this forum. WITP lost a good asset when he dropped out.

I don't know for sure, but I think he stopped his active posting because of the people who complained so much.

Heck, this forum tends to be one giant complaint-fest, and not just from guys with minority opinions.

The Big Three mentioned tended to be lightning rods that attracted a lot of attention to their issues. However, i believe there are lots of folk that are no longer on the forum that were reasonable in the way they presented their issues - and got hammered just the same. A couple of them clearly stated they were leaving the forum because of preceived abuse.

[DuckofTindalos]

For what it's worth (and that's not much), their tone got real old, real fast. Legitimate gripes can easily get lost in hostile words, which is what happened with all three of them. Most likely, this was born out of frustration with both the game and the reception they received here on the board, but that doesn't make it okay. Sorry, but I don't miss any of them at all.

[Gem35]

[DuckofTindalos]

Brilliant, Gem, just brilliant![&o][&o][&o]

[Nomad]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooopssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Gem35

And the answer is....., YES We were

[ChezDaJez]

And Ron and Tristan are nice people too when you get to know them I am sure.

I never played Ron but I did play TristanJohn. I quit our game in June 1942 with the IJN fleet and air forces intact, as was the army. I quit the game because of his gamey play. He stacked ports with multiple TFs composed of a single, empty AK. He also liked to use 200+ B-17s on a single mission night-bombing. Yet he howled to beat hell if I sent a bombardment force to the B-17 base (or any other base for that matter) or if I sent mulitple surface TFs to sink the AKs. I had informed him of what I considered gamey play before we started the game and that I wanted as historical a game as possible (meaning no exploitation of gamey loopholes in the rules). I warned him twice. I had enough when he got insulting because KB came within 10 hexes of the western map edge when I attacked Ceylon.

Tristan was very knowledgeable about WWII and he and I had more than one heated debate, as most of you will remember. What you never saw was the insulting PMs about me being too stupid to recognize that his was the only correct truth and if I didn't like the way he played, quit. What you saw on the forum was relatively mild by comparison.

I do kind of miss him though. A good, moving target is always hard to find![:D]

I have no idea whether TJ was banned or just chose to move on.

Chez

[ChezDaJez]

Yea, I'll be the first to admit that TJ was a sucker for "having his chain yanked" and would sometimes go overboard in defending his postion. He had/has no patience with fools, and he often felt those he "crossed swords" with were. Some were, some weren't..., but TJ was always sure he was right (and most often was) that he couldn't seem to grasp that even someone who was wrong could still be sincere in their point of view. Needless to say, this kicked of some truely "epic" wars of words.....

TJ did far more than his fair share of chain yanking. My debates with him were fairly civil until the infamous "Yamato vs Iowa" debate.

He sent me several PMs during that debate basically saying that I was one of the reasons why the game would never be fixed because I didn't stand up screaming that the game had flaws and my silence would ensure it never got fixed. He also constantly denigrated my position in his PMs by my "failure" to recognize that he was always totally right and I was always wrong and that it was stupid of me to question his "sources" (which he often refused to divulge). He always came across as a teacher talking down to a misguided student. And that was TJ's major failing: (1) his inability to admit that there was a possibility that he could be wrong and (2) his insufferable arrogance in stating that he was the only person to understand that. That's what led to my "How do you like me now?" post.

The sad truth is that I actually liked TJ until that "Yamato" debate. I thought he was very knowledgeable in many topics and I did learn a lot from him. I don't know why he left and I hope my debates with him did not cause him to leave.

Chez