CHS v1.07 Submissions

[treespider]

Please post you suggestions and submissions for CHS v1.07 here.

As with v1.06 please provide documentation as to the source of your information.

[Bradley7735]

I looked in CHS and the stock scenarios and couldn't find this ship. I think it should be included in CHS 1.07.

USS Barry, APD-29. Flushdeck convesion to APD arrived at Pearl Harbor 3/24/45. If you do add her in, she should have more than the normal US ship experience given to new construction. She earned several battle stars in the Atlantic.

http://pacific.valka.cz/ships/index.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/b/barry.htm

Barry joined Destroyer Division 67 in the Canal Zone 18 October 1940. Still on duty there when the United States entered World War II, she was assigned escort and anti-submarine warfare missions against the German submarine menace in the Atlantic. Early in 1942 Barry operated in the Caribbean escorting convoys between Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and Panama; and Curacao and Trinidad. Later in the year and throughout the first half of 1943 she performed escort duties in the South Atlantic, operating from Trinidad.
Between July and November 1943 she served as a unit of TG 21.14, a hunter-killer group which operated along the North Atlantic convoy lanes. The group conducted two sweeps (30 July-10 September and 28 September- 8 November) during which aircraft from Card (CVE-11) sank eight German submarines. Barry and Goff (DD-247) rescued survivors of Borie (DD-215) after she was mortally damaged 1 November while sinking the German submarine U-405 by ramming.
Barry underwent conversion to a high-speed transport at Charleston Navy Yard, 31 December 1943-17 February 1944 (reclassified APD-29, 15 January 1944). Barry departed the east coast 13 April 1844 for Mers-el-Kebir, Algeria, arriving 30 April. Practice amphibious landings were carried out until 14 August when she sortied for the invasion of southern France.
Between 15 and 20 August 1944 she landed her troops on the Islands of Levant and Port Cros, as well as on the mainland of France. Between August and December Barry served on escort duty in the western Mediterranean and then returned to the United States, arriving at Norfolk 23 December 1944. After brief repairs Barry departed for the Pacific and arrived at Pearl Harbor 24 March 1945. After training in the Hawaiian Islands, she arrived off Okinawa 16 May and performed patrol and escort duties during the occupation of the island.
On 25 May she was attacked by two kamikazes while on patrol 35 miles northwest of Okinawa. One was shot down, but the other broke through the barrage and struck Barry below her bridge. Twenty-eight of her valiant crew were wounded by shrapnel. The explosion of the plane's gasoline tanks and bomb ignited fuel oil escaping from Barry's ruptured tanks. The fire threatened the forward magazine which could not be reached to flood. At 1340, 40 minutes after the plane struck, the commanding officer gave the order to abandon ship. Barry's boats were lowered and all hands safely cleared the side.
At 1500 the water had risen until the forward magazine was covered, minimizing the danger of explosion. A skeleton crew, together with parties from Sims (APD-50) and Roper (APD-20), then reboarded Barry and the last fires were extinguished at 0630 the next day.
Barry was towed to the anchorage at Kerama Retto 28 May and found too extensively damaged to warrant repair or salvage. Stripped of useful gear, she was decommissioned 21 June 1945. Later in the day she was towed from the harbor of Kerama Retto to be used as a decoy for the kamikazes. While under tow she was attacked by Japanese suicide planes and sunk along with her escort, LSM-59.
Barry received the Presidential Unit Citation as a unit of TG 21.14 and four battle stars for her actions in the Atlantic and Pacific during World War II.

I apologize if this ship is in fact in the game, but I couldn't find it. (don't confuse it with USS Barr (APD-39))

PS, thanks Treespider for setting up a 1.07 thread.

[Bradley7735]

Ship #4151 Reynour (APD-102) is spelled incorrectly. It is USS Rednour (APD-102).

http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/04102.htm
http://ftp.ggi-project.org/hyperwar/USN ... pd102.html

Not a big deal, though.

[Bradley7735]

Ship #4196 Schmidt (APD-76) is spelled incorrectly. It is USS Schmitt (APD-76).

http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/04076.htm
http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/class.html?ID=79

Not a big deal, though.

(I got one or two more to go)

[Kereguelen]

Arrival times of British HQ:

14th Army was formed 22nd Oct 1943 by redesignation of Eastern Army. Eastern Army was formed 11th April 1942 at Ranchi (near Jamshedpur, first commander was LTG Broad, who is not in the database). There was a Southern Army formed the same day at Poona (under LTG Haig). But Eastern Army was the HQ that commanded the units in the Burma/Assam theatre, while Southern Army acted more like a regional HQ and was never renumbered because it never acted as a front-line HQ. I think that 14th Army should arrive on 11th April 1942 in the game because it was a true command HQ and historically available for this function at this time.

12th Army arrives waaaay too early in the game, it was formed 28th May 1945 at Rangoon (with LTG Stopford in command).

BURCORPS and XV. Indian Corps were basically the same formation, HQ BURCORPS closed 20th May 1942 after arrival in India, XV. Corps was formed in May 1942 at Calcutta. Both were commanded by LTG Slim (while XV. Corps was not really a redesignation of BURCORPS, I think it should be handled that way in the game).

IV. Indian Corps: Formed April 1942 at Imphal (LTG Irwin).

XXXIII. Indian Corps: Formed August 1942 at Bangalore (LTG Christison).

XXXIV. Indian Corps: Formed 1st March 1945 at Poona (LTG Roberts).

K

(Source: Loyalty & Honour by Chris Kempton)

[Bradley7735]

Ship # 4207, USS Witter is listed in CHS as an APD. I can't find more than this 1 source, but it lists it as a DE of the Buckley TE class.

http://pacific.valka.cz/ships/index.htm

Main guns: 3x76/50 mk 21
secondary: 2x40mm, 8x20mm, 1 hedghog
SL and SA radars

I don't know if someone can find a second source to confirm or a source to deny the change.

bc

[Bradley7735]

Ok, this last APD issue may be the toughest one.

USS Simms II, APD-50. Arrived at Panama in January 1945. It was of the Buckley class of APD's. It helped the USS Barry (see my first post) when she was damaged off Okinawa. And, she was present during the surrender ceremony in Tokyo Bay.

So, she shares the same name with a sunk US DD. WITP does not include this ship because it was named after another ship. I think it should be included. There is no re-spawn rule in place to allow for this specific ship. And, there are several examples of two ships with the same name already in the stock game. (USS Enterprise and HMS Enterprise, and HMAS Canberra and HMAS Canberra (heavy cruiser and AP))

I suppose this isn't the thread to open up the respawn issue, but technically, this ship is not addressed by the respawn feature. (the drawback is that if you do allow this ship to be added, there are more than 30 other DD's, DE's, DM's and SS's that would probably be looked at)

Ultimately, I'm ok with you guys not including USS Simms II. I'm just posting the data in case you want to.

And, that's the last of my APD OOB errors that I could find.

[Bradley7735]

I think the CD unit that starts at Thursday Island has "fortifications" added to make it static. (I can't remember if it's the guns or the "fortifications"). I think these "fortifications" should be removed to make the unit moveable. The problem is that it's in a malaria zone and the unit suffers losses and can not be rotated out. I'm certainly fine with having static units in places like Tongerapu, Suva and the like, because these units won't degrade if they have supply.

There is another unit on Christmas Is (in the Indian ocean, not Pacific) that is static. But, I think it's static because of the size of the gun, not "fortifications". And, most Japanese players will invade there and kill the unit anyway. But in the games vs AI, it'll wither away and die, unless the gun dies, then I can rotate it to a non-malaria base and stop giving points to the other side. I'm more concerned with Thursday Is because the allied player can usually hold that base.

It's just a thought.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

I think the CD unit that starts at Thursday Island has "fortifications" added to make it static. (I can't remember if it's the guns or the "fortifications"). I think these "fortifications" should be removed to make the unit moveable. The problem is that it's in a malaria zone and the unit suffers losses and can not be rotated out. I'm certainly fine with having static units in places like Tongerapu, Suva and the like, because these units won't degrade if they have supply.

The Thursday Island Garrison was made static to reflect the inclusion of local Native Troops in the defense force. Early on the garrison consisted primarily of a few CD guns, a local volunteer militia, the native unit (Torres Strait Infantry Battalion but only about a company as of 12/41), and A Company of the 49th Australian Battalion (rest at Port Moresby). With the exception of A company, the rest of the troops could not have been assigned service elsewhere.

There is another unit on Christmas Is (in the Indian ocean, not Pacific) that is static. But, I think it's static because of the size of the gun, not "fortifications". And, most Japanese players will invade there and kill the unit anyway. But in the games vs AI, it'll wither away and die, unless the gun dies, then I can rotate it to a non-malaria base and stop giving points to the other side. I'm more concerned with Thursday Is because the allied player can usually hold that base.

It's just a thought.

The small garrison of Christmas Island (1 British Officer, 3 British NCO, about 32 Indian Soldiers) is indeed made static by the gun. I do not know if the British ever considered evacuating the garrison but I doubt it. And, unfortunately, there is no function is WITP that allows a player to "abandon" static devices and retreat.

Especially considering the subsequent mutiny, I am very much in favor of leaving this unit static.

[jcjordan]

Minor little typo in leader db - Woods, L #15215 has a period in front of name.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

I think the CD unit that starts at Thursday Island has "fortifications" added to make it static. (I can't remember if it's the guns or the "fortifications"). I think these "fortifications" should be removed to make the unit moveable. The problem is that it's in a malaria zone and the unit suffers losses and can not be rotated out. I'm certainly fine with having static units in places like Tongerapu, Suva and the like, because these units won't degrade if they have supply.

There is another unit on Christmas Is (in the Indian ocean, not Pacific) that is static. But, I think it's static because of the size of the gun, not "fortifications". And, most Japanese players will invade there and kill the unit anyway. But in the games vs AI, it'll wither away and die, unless the gun dies, then I can rotate it to a non-malaria base and stop giving points to the other side. I'm more concerned with Thursday Is because the allied player can usually hold that base.

It's just a thought.

Yeah, 30 sounds a bit light, and not counting cruisers and carriers. It all comes down to whether you like the respawn feature or not. For the carriers it would be easy to add them back because they were renamed. Ditto for most of the cruisers. However, for the DD's and smaller they were not "renamed". Thus if we use them we could have a situation of having mulitble ships with the same name in play. What really gets afffected for DD's are the early arrival Sumner Class, with amny of them renamed for previouslyt lost destroyers (Ingraham, Barton, Laffey, O'Brien, Dehaven, etc.). So maybe we CHS people can eventually mod a non-spawn version??

[Blackhorse]

For consideration in CHS 1.07 I sent a list to Treespider and Don of US land and air reinforcements scheduled to transfer from the Europe to the Pacific between 8/45 and 1/46 to participate in the planned final invasion of Japan. I was working on this back in January, until I had a sudden yearning to vacation in Iraq for several months. [;)] I've returned and finished the OOB.

The OOB includes 12 new US Army divisions (the plans called for 15, three are already in the game) plus the British 3rd INF and Canadian 6th INF divisions.

I have also identified the 54(!) US Air Groups that were also in the process of shifting to the Pacific when the war ended. This includes 20 Groups of B24s (being upgraded to B29s), 20 Groups of B17s, 5 Groups of A26s, 6 Groups of P47s, and 2 Groups of P51s. [CHS already includes Philip Bass' excellent work identifying the 20 British/ Canadian/ Australian "Tiger Force" Lancaster bomber squadrons coming from Europe to the Pacific].

I'd appreciate some advice on a couple of points:

1. With a little extra research I could break the Groups down into their nearly 200 component squadrons. Is it worth doing for these late 45 reinforcements, or are groups adequate?

2. Along with the units come Headquarters -- 5 Corps HQ, one US Army HQ, the US 8th Air Force HQ, and a new US Strategic Air Forces Pacific command. Back in January, there were few available HQ slots. What is the current situation?

3. The same question for unit leaders. I've identified the HQ and division leaders. Should I rate them, or will we use random leaders?

4. The European B24 Groups were being converted to B29s. By August, six Groups had completed the conversion. Should all 20 B24 Groups arrive converted to B29s? Should the first six Groups be B29s, and the next 14 B24s? Or should all 20 Groups arrive as B24s, and rely on production for upgrades to B29s? and if so, does B29 production need to be adjusted?

5. Although they began arriving in the Pacific in the early fall of 1945, the European LCUs were designated to participate in Operation "Coronet" -- the second invasion of Japan, in March of 1946. Standard WitP ends in March, 1946. If CHS does, as well, should we bother to include these reinforcements?

6. Two of the "Tiger Force" squadrons were going to carry the 14,000 lb "Tallboy" bomb (in September, 100 Tallboys were en route to Okinawa). Can anyone show me a way to create a Tallboy "device" so that only these two squadrons would use it? Is there a way to "randomize" whether the squadrons use Tallboys or 500 lb bombs, or to restrict the overuse of Tallboys by limited production?

[Sardaukar]

Any chances to re-organize/re-study the radars on ships, subs and planes ?? Some of original decisions are very curious. Different radars seem to have quite an impact on game.

[Bradley7735]

1: I think the number of available air groups is dwindling. I don't know how many are left, but groups are probably better than squadrons, if you want them all in. Personally, I like having the fighters in individual squadrons, but the bombers in groups. Having the bombers in squadrons is ok too. It's only a hassle when you need to transfer all the squadrons from one airfield to another. Overall, I really like having most of the airgroups as squadrons in CHS.

2: I don't know how many LCU slots are left.

3: I don't know how many leader slots are left, but if you have data on specific leaders, I think you should include them. I mean, that's what WITP is all about. Detail to the nth degree.

4: If a group was intended to arrive with B-29's, then I think it should arrive as B-29's. You might have to extend the arrival date to account for conversion time.
4b: Now that you mention it, I do believe the US would dramatically increase planes to the Pacific around June/July 45. I don't know how you'd go about doing it, though. Andrew has experimented with bases having arrival times. You could have a base arrive in the eastern US with lots of aircraft factories. That might make it possible to increase production on planes that are no longer going to the Atlantic.

5: I believe CHS ends in March 1946. Whether it does or not, the Japanese player wins if the allies don't have 2-1 odds anyway. I don't think you should bother with units arriving that late in the game. Personally, any unit that doesn't arrive by 1/1/46 is probably to late, too little. I'd focus on 45 and earlier.

6: I'm almost positive that there are no available devices left. If you want to include the Tallboy, you'll have to eliminate an existing device.

That's my 2 cents.

[Blackhorse]

Thanks for the input.

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

1: I think the number of available air groups is dwindling.
2: I don't know how many LCU slots are left.
3: I don't know how many leader slots are left, but if you have data on specific leaders, I think you should include them. I mean, that's what WITP is all about. Detail to the nth degree.

Treespider, Don, Andrew, what say you? Are there enough LCU (17), air group (54, or 200, if by squadrons), HQ (8) and leader (25 for all divisions and HQs) slots available to accomodate the 1945 European Theatre reinforcements?

4: If a group was intended to arrive with B-29's, then I think it should arrive as B-29's. You might have to extend the arrival date to account for conversion time.

I agree (and did, in fact, extend the arrival dates for each Group by an extra 2 months to allow for conversion). But there was no separate production for Europe. All the B29s went to the Pacific. As part of the game mechanic, should these groups arrive equipped with B29s, or should they have to draw their planes from the B29 pool in game?

4b: Now that you mention it, I do believe the US would dramatically increase planes to the Pacific around June/July 45. I don't know how you'd go about doing it, though. Andrew has experimented with bases having arrival times. You could have a base arrive in the eastern US with lots of aircraft factories. That might make it possible to increase production on planes that are no longer going to the Atlantic.

Again, I think you are correct. Beginning in the fall of 1945, the US would certainly have a sudden surge in the pilot pool, and in replacement airframes (excepting the B29, which was being used almost exclusively in the Pacific already). My gut feel is that it is not worth tampering with the production system to try to simulate this "boost" after Germany surrenders, but if it can be done it would certainly add to the game's accuracy.

5: I believe CHS ends in March 1946. Whether it does or not, the Japanese player wins if the allies don't have 2-1 odds anyway. I don't think you should bother with units arriving that late in the game. Personally, any unit that doesn't arrive by 1/1/46 is probably to late, too little. I'd focus on 45 and earlier.

Unless I hear otherwise, this is the course I will follow. Reinforcements began arriving from Europe (the 8th Air Force) in July. I'll look for reinforcements arriving between July and the following January.

6: I'm almost positive that there are no available devices left. If you want to include the Tallboy, you'll have to eliminate an existing device.
That's my 2 cents.

Are all the device slots taken? If so, can anyone suggest a less important device that can be eliminated to make room for the Tallboy?

[Don Bowen]

Treespider, Don, Andrew, what say you? Are there enough LCU (17), air group (54, or 200, if by squadrons), HQ (8) and leader (25 for all divisions and HQs) slots available to accomodate the 1945 European Theatre reinforcements?

There are enough LCU slots and there are at least 25 unused leader slots. I'm not sure about devices - there are one or two empties around the "bomb" section but I do not know for sure if they can be used.

No luck at all on HQ and probably not airgroups. Remember that the last 200 airgroup slots are used during game execution for splitting air groups (of both sides). CHS is already right up to the edge of the last 200 (exactly - 2199 out of 2399). Every additional slot used is one less for splitting. If one were to use the last 200 slots than groups would not be able to split at all. Russian and Japanese air OOB still contain groups and, of course, Russian activation would happen by the time you are interested in.

Perhaps we could take up a collection and hire Matrix to extend the sizes...

[Halsey]

For a prolonged war into 45-46, the US needs the Midway class added.[;)]

[DuckofTindalos]

Et voila...

[Halsey]

That's what I'm talkin about![:D]

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

For a prolonged war into 45-46, the US needs the Midway class added.[;)]

Class is there (#241) - we added it when Tanker did the artwork. The carriers themselves were not added due to their arrival dates.


EDIT: wow - two of us posting the same thing at about the same time. And I'm running last as usual.