My Very Own Spanish Ulcer

[Grand_Armee]

I figured I'd try a game where I'd use the "Total War" declaration. My target was Spain. Once subdued, I was going to give her wholly to a very reduced France.

First I had to do a balancing act. Positive side, to get enough territories to have the wherewithal to make a protracted war while building a navy to equal Britain's. I was playing Prussia. Negative side was to stay away from the top spot in regards to Glory. This was tough, because Prussia atarts out with poor provinces that don't give up much cash even with the banks upgraded to 5 universally.

The richest states close by were the free German states. BTW, this is the 1796 scenario. France held Kleves, so I went to war with her for that one state. I couped Hesse, and after prolonged diplomatic efforts and heavy subsidies, I got Saxony to join me. I had to get our relation to over 6,000 because everyone else was subsidizing her, too. When I finally got her to invite me to form a protectorate, she had 190,000 in forces. My own army was barely twice as big.

Brunswick came asking next after Austria declared war on her. Austria was at the top of the glory heap, and heavily embattled...but I worked my way to Vienna via the Czech provinces and secured a surrender. I took Linz and Austria from her...I wanted them as bargaining chips later, having no intention of holding states that Austria would want back.

Spain meanwhile had gotten Bavaria and her associated states as protectorates and had taken Baden from Turkey adding her to Spain.

I traded the two Austrian provinces for Baden.

Finally, I declared total war on the dons. First I took Berg, adding it to Prussia then Nuremberg. Nuremberg unfortunately stayed Spanish controlled. Bavaria fell to me next.

Despite my gains, Britain and Austria were above me in glory so I took the time to coup Mecklenburg while bribing the French to give me passage rights.

Navarre was my first target, and with 120,000 men and the Prussian fleet in blockade, I took the Spanish state after starving the garrison and two large detailed battles.

I worked westward, plundering as I went to keep costs down, especially among the growing number of prisoners. Eventually every Spanish state I traversed would have nothing left to plunder. And a few times guerillas were able to destroy my depots despite the presence of large nmubers of my men. Once this happened in the middle of winter, and my infantry formations were reduced to 3K men. Cavalry and Arty were lower, and I lost two Arty Divs this way.

One corps would hold a depot, while the other two would beseige the next capital over. Spain also owned the entirety of Italy, and Guerillas were ranging as far east as Livonia, north to Danzig, and throughout France. I couldn't believe how many there were.

Here, I re-discovered the Naples bug. Part of me suspects this was subversive programming to keep Spain in the fight. Free infantry and cavalry for Spain...what a deal! I caught on to this by seeing that every time I won a battle against Spain, that Neapolitan POW's were being liberated.

I had two good-bad diplomats to work with, and they went to Naples. It took three turns to get them there, but once there worked their magic in one turn causing an insurrection. Holy Mackeral! Almost 300K troops had been Serving spain from the Italian state.

Now we tried to coup Naples to get those guys to disappear. No dice. EVery turn, somebody else would become the protector. First Turkey, then Britain, then Russia, back to Turkey, and Finally France. There I gave up the round of Insurrection-coup-back to insurrection, since France was the most dismembered nation and could use the men.

Spain at the time was at war with virtually everybody. And still spitting out enough guerillas to keep the tomato-omelette flag everywhere except Britain.

These guerillas are marvels of engineering. Less than 30K of them can lay seige to a city where a normal army would need twice that number. And, my guys lose heavily to the defenders, these guerillas suffer fewer casualties. Pretty good for guys with stolen muskets, tenous supplies, and no cannon, eh? How many seiges did guerrillas conduct successfully during the Napoleanic wars? I don't know to be honest, though the Tyroleans made life hectic for the Bavarians before they were finally quashed.

I had to raise a second force for the Italian theater to cut down on guerillas. although only two Italian and three Spanish states remain ontaken by me, the guerillas seem to keep coming in growing numbers. Obviously my plan isn't working[:(]

Spanish NML kept hovering at the 100 point. I betook my two diplomats to lowering Spanish Morale. This they did splendidly reaching a negative 957...I expected (hoped) that a NML victory could end my Spanish indigestion.

Then, the surrenders started. With every surrender, Spanish NML rose and more guerillas were added to my plate until I was fighting them alone. I began to see that I would need a corps in every province just to be able to avoid the province coming under seige, as well as some free corps to add strength where they were needed.

But now, I was facing money problems. The 2k that I started out with had been whittled down to 1k and I had to reduce readiness. I had to refuse trade...everyone except Britain was after my money! I even cut some routes that weren't bringing me food.

With one complete fleet and another half-fleet, as well as 5 armies and 8 corps plus nemerous depots, I wasn't making much money at all. Still, the guerillas kept coming...enough of them so that I was able to choose detailed battle instead of QB. These QB's are a pain because sometimes 7K guerrillas could undo a force of 42K of all arms. Go figure!

Those few provinces not owned by me were occasionally spitting out infantry as well as some cavalry.

In Spain, my forces were in trouble. My original army had been reduced to some 80K men. Having to garrison captured cities meant leaving men behind. These in turn were beseiged by pitiful numbers of guerillas and destroyed despite my active corps moving around to squash them.

I've just set that game aside. Britain is at the top of the Glory heap with me 400 points behind at second. Spanish NML after her surrenders is at -400-something.
I don't know that I'll continue it.

Certainly, until the newest patch comes out, Naples will be at the top of my list to remove from Spain.

Oh, one more gripe. Why are Italian provinces producing guerillas? The Italian peoples of the era were nothing like their Spanish counterparts.

Finally, can a guerilla producing nation ever be totally subdued?

[Ralegh]

1) Fighting guerillas is very hard in 1.1 - rebalancing this a bit was one of the first things done in the 1.2 (currently in late beta).
2) In 1.2, your depots won't get disrupted in your territory (ie. including occupied territory), and troops defending the depot do help them stay in existence in enemy territory - so all much better.
3) The beta testers have already raised the issue of some protectorates generating absurd numbers of troops, and Eric is considering the best way to fix this (I gave a few different suggestions!).

In my experience, though, declaring total war against a country with more than 4 or 5 provinces is asking for trouble, and even after the rebalances in 1.2 I don't think it will be at all easy to win one. I do not believe the game will ever make what you tried to do plausible - declaring total war on a nation with dozens of provinces (particularly Spain with its extra guerilla values) is biting off a lot more than anyone can probably chew. On the other hand, you did mention that most of Europe did join in to help you - with lots of players cooperating, it would probably be possible - but very very costly.

My strategy for using total war is to use normal wars until the enemy only have a few provs left, and then total war to knock them out of the game. I will be testing a total war using the 1.2 beta before it goes final (mainly to check that the game deals with the ex-capital province properly after the nation is knocked out).

[Grand_Armee]

Actually they didn't jump in to help me, they were already at war with Spain. EVery nation was giving Spain the screaming red face.

YOu're right though, I should have taken provinces in a few "minor wars". Is there a certain number of guerillas that are generated per province per turn? I seemed to have a battle every turn in every province that was completely Spanish yellow. Like they'd pop up and either avoid battle, or I'd whack em.

Their ability to conduct seiges with small numbers strikes me as most unrealistic. In one case 15K of them were beseiging Dresden which had a garrison of 35K.

[Ralegh]

guerillas are better at sieging that anyone else, and thaty is a feature - but as I say this gets rebalanced in 1.2 to tone it down a bit.

Each province has an intrinsic guerilla value - I think that any turn it is occupied there is a chance of a guerilla being generated. During total war, there is a hefty bonus, so I would suspect that some of the provinces you were occupying were generating a division a month!

We are badgering Eric at the moment about unlimited feudal troops being raised by protectorates, and I think he will put a fix for this into the 1.2 patch - I think unlimited guerillas falls into the same category. There should be some cap (probably a base amount and then an allowance per point of populatioin, I would expect, but I don't think Eric has decided yet.)

[pricemc1]

I think the game really needs to limit guerillas to movement to within their own country. If they would be forced to retreat out then they should surrender. The definately shouldnt be raiding other countries. This would be more historically accurate. Russia and Spain both seem to have guerilla and/or cossack units thats act very out of character. Guerilla units should not be able to siege either. This should be restricted to corp or army units only.

Just my 2 cents...

Mike

[ericbabe]

Giving guerilla units the ability to siege was a way for a nation to kick invaders out of its own cities. I'll probably restrict guerilla participation in sieges to occupied cities in friendly provinces only.

Limiting their movement to home territory is trickier but we could try something like this. I'd have to make it so that guerillas couldn't be attached to armies/corps/fleets, but I suppose that's OK.

[Naomi]

ORIGINAL: Ralegh

1) Fighting guerillas is very hard in 1.1 - rebalancing this a bit was one of the first things done in the 1.2 (currently in late beta).
2) In 1.2, your depots won't get disrupted in your territory (ie. including occupied territory), and troops defending the depot do help them stay in existence in enemy territory - so all much better.
3) The beta testers have already raised the issue of some protectorates generating absurd numbers of troops, and Eric is considering the best way to fix this (I gave a few different suggestions!).

In my experience, though, declaring total war against a country with more than 4 or 5 provinces is asking for trouble, and even after the rebalances in 1.2 I don't think it will be at all easy to win one. I do not believe the game will ever make what you tried to do plausible - declaring total war on a nation with dozens of provinces (particularly Spain with its extra guerilla values) is biting off a lot more than anyone can probably chew. On the other hand, you did mention that most of Europe did join in to help you - with lots of players cooperating, it would probably be possible - but very very costly.

My strategy for using total war is to use normal wars until the enemy only have a few provs left, and then total war to knock them out of the game. I will be testing a total war using the 1.2 beta before it goes final (mainly to check that the game deals with the ex-capital province properly after the nation is knocked out).

I have a question and an opinion.
- Does a division at a depot in a home province improve the survival of the depot, say, through a weather change (not against an enemy harassment)?
- Some nations have provinces (those signalled with two flags) that diplomats can rouse into independence, like Prussian provinces around Warsaw. I found through my experience that they did so pretty easily. In that case, launching a total war against such nations may be worthwhile, aided with diplomats' collaboration. I shall be planning one. (~,~)v

[Hard Sarge]

I would say that

guerilla units the ability to siege

is not the same as an army marching in and building saps and walls and trying to break though the walls

the Guerilla would be inside the town/city raiseing hell and makeing trouble and trying to take over

[Grand_Armee]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I would say that

guerilla units the ability to siege

is not the same as an army marching in and building saps and walls and trying to break though the walls

the Guerilla would be inside the town/city raiseing hell and makeing trouble and trying to take over

Still, this should be in their home territory. The Spanish guerillas that finally made their way over the Pyrenees in 1814 were no help to Wellington at all.

I could see where the Spanish guerillas were great at keeping supplies from reaching cities with no armies around...because they also had a public who sympathized with them.

And the cossacks that reached Central Europe in 1813 were just as often hunted down for brigandage.

Some things just aren't as good away from home.