Kamikazes, some questions

[Belphegor]

I saw a post a while ago on this, can't find it now.

Kamikaze damage:

is there a formula for damage?

Why do the aircraft show damage animations of their standard loadout?
ie. Bettys when they hit show torpedo hits, Lilys... bomb hits. Does the damage they do correspond to their regular loads? so Bettys do more float damage? or does that have nothing to do with it, that is just the animation used.

[Nikademus]

I recall MikeW confirming that the specific plane loadout does factor into the bombing effect. Specifics on the formula were not provided however.

[Speedysteve]

From seing people's observations it does appear heavier loads cause mroe damage - Emily's being DEADLY from what I hear. Things like Zero's aren't overly great at the other end of the scale.

[Nikademus]

The Okha is pretty deadly, assuming it ever hits anything. [:D]

[paladin333]

Someone said that number of engines DOES matter.

[Speedysteve]

Nik - Okha's working ok now?

[Nikademus]

well thats part of the joke.

Kamakazes and Okhas were fixed by Mike and tested, but none of us Betas were able to get an Okha to hit but mind you, the weapon is not supposed to be very accurate hence the joke that circulated around was....

Did you get a hit?
I didn't get a hit?
should i have gotten a hit?
isn't lack of a hit a good thing?
you tell me!
I missed, it must be working right.


I do recall back in PacWar days, with hundreds of playing hours under my belt, i only ever recalled one or two Okha's hitting a target......one for sure because it scored a six * critical hit on an Essex class carrier and sank it. Still remember that turn to this day clearly.

But it only ever happened once.

[Speedysteve]

You're right I don't remember seeing a hit in PacWar.

Are they that effective. If they hit should it be KABLAMMO?

[Nikademus]

They have a big effect rating so their potential is great. Whether or not it'll score a critical hit is the luck of the draw as when that Essex carrier of mine met it's firey death

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

"Nik" do you remember even older joke: "Never train your Kamikaze units"... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Speedysteve]

[;)]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

"Nik" do you remember even older joke: "Never train your Kamikaze units"... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

Another old joke:

Kamikaze trainer (boarding his aircraft) to trainees: "Now pay attention, because i'm only going to show you this once!"

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

"Nik" do you remember even older joke: "Never train your Kamikaze units"... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

Another old joke:

Kamikaze trainer (boarding his aircraft) to trainees: "Now pay attention, because i'm only going to show you this once!"

[:D]

BTW, do you know of most excellent English TV series "Allo Allo" made 10+ years ago (this is one line frequently used there)?


Leo "Apollo11"

[anarchyintheuk]

Great series.

[Belphegor]

Before this spins off further... thanks for the responses everyone. And now back to the tangent. [:D]

[Brady]

So why are Ohaks not accurate? I thought that they had a prety decent hit % historicaly. Subchaser did a realy interesting assesment of this a while back.

[Brady]

From a post by Subchaser on this subject:

............................

Rikko units of ww2" by Osamu Tagaya is not the first book you should read on this subject, Tagaya did an outstanding job on covering early war period, but later war was just briefly described. For more detailed stuff look into “The Hagoromo Society of Kamikaze Divine Thunderbolt Corps Survivors: The Cherry blossom Squadrons” by Andrew Adams. Ohara publications 1975. on ohka combat effectiveness - pp 48-79.

Characteristics on paper and in reality proved to be quite different, it was figured out that Okha effective range was exactly 10 times more than altitude of a drop, Maru dai (Rikko + Okha complex) maximum ceiling was 6km, thus Okha effective range was just 60 km. Operational range of G4M2e with attached Okha was 65% of Rikko’s normal (with usual loadout), so the main problem was not how to avoid US fighters during Okha's actual attack, but how to protect Rikkos that close to US fleet. However there were successes, on 12th april 45 Dohi Saburo from Kaigun Jinrai Butai, the first successful Ohka driver, hit DD-733 Mannert L. Abele (ship disintegrated) near Okinawa, out of 10 launched 3 more Jinrai pilots managed to commit 'surimisho' that day, one hit water in just 50 meters away from DMS-27 Jeffers, explosion seriously damaged the ship, 2 others attacked DD-478 Stanly, one was destroyed by flak but another one reached its target, warhead did not exploded immediately, Ohka simply went thru the ship too fast, Kamikaze left huge hole and exploded only when Okha was already deep in water. (sailors from Stanly later told that they did not see that last Okha and thought that it was torpedo launched by Japanese submarine)

Later there were some more victories, but incomparably less Japanese hoped for. The main problem was not in Okha itself but in adequate escorts for Rikkos, % of hits for those Ohkas who had reached the target area was pretty high in comparison with regular kamikaze.

[Brady]

Another Post by Subchaser and some more questions...

1) Damage calculations – looks like the main factor here is the weapon that certain a/c type carry in normal configuration (non-kamikaze), so if you convert Zero fighter daitai to kamikaze unit do not expect to see any allied capital ship sunk, modifier takes into account only damage inflicted by 60kg bombs (yes that’s what they use as kamikaze unit) and adds a couple of fire points, so, as it was in my game vs AI (I’ve replayed several old turns with 1.5) Lexington had only 4 fire damage points after 2 Zeros rammed her. Another case are a/c types that use heavier loads, especially torpedo bombers, as you can guess one or two Jill ramming attacks can send Essex class CV to the bottom (torpedoes damage + more fire damage points), make your choices…

2) Kamikaze attacks against enemy bases – still there, if kamikaze unit ordered to execute special attacks and cannot find any enemy TFs within a range it usually attacks enemy bases and always without any sign of success. Torpedo bombers in kamikaze units do not suffer from this bug, game simply doesn’t allow to use torps against the bases.

Looks like that (test in modified tutorial)

Day Air attack on Satawal , at 60,74

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 46

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 46 destroyed

Nothing on Satawal was even scratched… nothing happened to 100 B-29 and dozen of MSWs at that base, supplies and fuel storage are intact as well…. two highly experienced kamikaze units gone.

3) Control over kamikaze units is absolutely insufficient - Torpedo and dive bomber units converted to kamikaze can only attack in mass with all available a/c or do not attack at all, only two options here Kamikaze or training; Fighter and fighter bomber are more flexible, they can fly CAP, but this gives Allied player a chance to shoot them down over their bases before they cause any damage... unfair.

4) G4M2e + Okha attacks, these tend to attack only in a group of 2 a/c, so 1 unit can launch only 4 a/c during the turn, 2 in am phase and 2 more in pm phase… and yes they always miss, no matter how experienced they are.

I will be happy if someone will tell me that I’m all wrong here…

...............

Are these isues extant or resolved?
Namely the pis pore bombload for the Zero's as just one example on a Kamakisie atack, and the other isues mentioed above.

BTW why is the Okha production leval so low? Francillion say that between sept. 44 and March 45 , 755 Okha model 11 were built. 21 March 45 was their operational debue. Thats like over a 100 a month....

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Brady


So why are Ohaks not accurate? I thought that they had a prety decent hit % historicaly. Subchaser did a realy interesting assesment of this a while back.

Would probably be mainly due to the pilot training level. I suspect this is a classic case of statistics vs real life. An Okha pilot, like a Kamakaze, cant really "practice" his craft since the nature of the device is a one way trip to Heaven. I dont recall the Okha being described as a particularily nimble device once the full motive power was activated. Alot would come down to chance and luck.

[Brady]

Well...If the math shows they had a resionable hit percentage, which it aparently does, then wouldent that be reality? I mean of those relased withen the operational range of the weapon a fair number hit or did damage to ships.


.............

Found this on the damage done to West Virginia, never realy heard what the Okha did to her:

West Virginia continued her bombardment duties throughout the day, on the alert to provide counter-battery fire in support of the troops as they advanced rapidly inland. There appeared to be little resistance on April 1, and West Virginia lay to offshore, awaiting further orders. At 1903, however, an enemy plane brought the war down on West Virginia.

The battleship picked up three enemy planes on her radar and tracked them as they approached; flak peppered the skies but still they came. One crossed over the port side and then looped over and crash-dived into West Virginia, smashing into a superstructure deck just forward of secondary battery director number two. Four men were killed by the blast, and seven were wounded in a nearby 20-millimeter gun gallery. The bomb carried by the plane broke loose from its shackle and penetrated to the second deck. Fortunately, it did not explode and was rendered harmless by the battleship's bomb disposal officer. Although her galley and laundry looked hard-hit, West Virginia--reporting her damage as repairable by ship's force--carried on, rendering night illumination fire to the marines ashore.