Importance or Impotence of strategic bombing.

[Feinder]

From you Japanese fanboys who managed to stick out a game, into say mid-1943...

Just how important is Production/Oil for you?

Bear with me on the "stupid question" perception. I'm asking, because I've always been an advocate of a very aggressive stategic bombing campaign, especially against Oil. Demolish or Bomb anything in the SRA and Burma that you possibly can. No oil means Heavy Industry chokes. Wonderful.

At least in theory. I've never gotten a game into 1943. While I have made every effort to prosecute Oil centers to greatest degree of pain (some games EXTREMELY successfully), I'm just curious if it -REALLY- does any good.

It sounds like it should be "well duh, yes!". But I've never had a game roll into where I actually see any shortages. I don't necessarily think my esteemed opponents SHOULD be seeing shortages (again, the games aren't even 1943 yet).

Serioualy tho. Folks talk about plenty of Japanese airframes (and lack of pilots). But part of the point of the strat bombing campaign is to limit heavy industry thus slowing or halting ship production and limiting the number of airframes produced. But frankly, I can kill enemy pilots without the pain of going after Oil and Heavy Industry centers.

I'm just asking, because I'd like to know if bombing an oil field is REALLY worth it. If I send B-17s over an oil field, it's HEAVILY defended by both Flak and fighters. If I get 5 oil hits, hurray for me. But I can just as easily bomb a airfield, get far more hits onsupply depots (and burning more supply to repair the place), and even kill some pilots on the ground.

Feedback?
-F-

[Nikademus]

Not a production expert but i do know that i've had to keep a steady supply of resource and oil coming into Japan in order to keep the supply and fuel stocks at good levels.

Course in the case of oil though, Japan practically only needs Palembang. I cant empty the place.....not for want of trying. It puts the produce in production of oil points.

[Feinder]

I read then Nik, that strategic bombing ISN'T that rewarding...?

Even if you're exaggerating about Palembang (I realize it's huge), but let's say you need it plus a few more refineries. If you can provide your oil requirements from say Pal/Miri/Brunei, that means that be clobbering everythig else, isn't really hurting you.

That implies that I've got to do a HUGE amount of damage to oil centers, for you to even feel it (in airframe or shipbuilding production).

That leaves only the amount of fuel and supply produced from the Oil/HI.

Supply. Bah. Resources produce supplies out the wazoo. And even if we say we killed an oil point, which couldn't help produce HI, which coun't produce supply, you're talking about a couple hundred during the length of a game per oil point.

Which leaves us fuel. I don't know anything about the IJN fuel situation. I'll take it that it requires a degree of managment. But again, are you ever in the situation where you have to say, "Boy, I'd really like to invade Canton Island. But geeze, I just haven't got the gas to do it..."

Hm.

Interesting.

Yes Parker (since I know you're reading), interesting...

-F-

[Feinder]

And for what it's worth,

In my Campaing '45 game vs. Oliver (I'm Japan), I can't see that it makes that big a difference. In '45 you start with everything. All ships are built. All LCUs and Sqdns are in existance. I can count the number of capitol ships on my fingers, so I don't need much fuel (for lack of a fleet). The only think I need to worry about is producing airframes (and I you tend to go thru a lot of them my pilots keep trying crashing them into enemy ships).

-F-

[WiTP_Dude]

I say go for it. Destroy all of Burma, Ambonia, Sorong, Kendari, and Hanoi. A few dozen heavy bombers can wreak havok on unprotected resource locations in China or Southeast Asia. One way to slow up the Japanese early on in is to attack Asian resources with heavy bombers. The Japanese will then have to hold back some fighters to protect these locations.

Use your otherwise useless subs to put large mine fields at Palembang to hit a few tankers before they can haul oil. The reason it is difficult to keep Palembang functioning at 100% efficiency is because the Japanese don't have a huge fleet of tankers to work with. Oil production stops at a location once a certain level of oil is stored up.

I don't see massive stocks of oil and resources down the line in my games that other players do. Every drop of oil is needed to build the tools of war to put up a fight, especially once the Allies start to really roll in 1944. You need lots of aircraft, war ships, transports, infantry, artillery, and tanks. If there is heavy industry available, it should be used. I don't see the value of Japan losing the war while at the same time having 200,000 heavy industry points stored in the bank.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Which leaves us fuel. I don't know anything about the IJN fuel situation. I'll take it that it requires a degree of managment. But again, are you ever in the situation where you have to say, "Boy, I'd really like to invade Canton Island. But geeze, I just haven't got the gas to do it..."

Fuel is not a problem for the Japanese. The biggest problem is having enough tankers to transport the fuel to where you want it while at the same time getting the oil delivered in a timely manner.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I read then Nik, that strategic bombing ISN'T that rewarding...?

-F-

On the contrary, it can be VERY rewarding, arguably too rewarding (Recall the famous Mogami proclamation of Butt-weasel-dum if you use DB's to attack cities)

I was just commenting that if OIL is your target, Palembang is both an Achillies heel for Japan (a single very important target on the fringe of their empire) but also a great strength as it ALONE can propably fuel all of Japan's oil needs even if you bomb the crap out of everything else OIL wise.

In my game with Kaiser, i was able to use SB in China to good effect, forcing him to abandon Yennen without a fight. (i assume due to lack of supply and value of the base) My mod made changes there that actually eliminates the temptation to SB because it is very effective.

In terms of Japan....I'll say this....during my expansion period, supply and fuel were tight....stockpiles drained dangerously, so neglecting of resource and oil centers is dangerous but remember too that historically the Allies didn't need to bomb these centers.....the subs made it superfluous.

[ltfightr]

Yes, Japan has developed a limited SI capability.

[esteban]

Palembang will not cover all of the Japanese player's oil needs. Really, you need all the Borneo, Java and Sumatran oil centers to run your industry at anything close to full capacity. Between these centers, you get 1800 oil centers (800 on Sumatra, 800 on Borneo, 200 on Java) producing 11,800 oil per turn. Whatever you can salvage from Aboina, Sorong and Burma is icing on the cake.

However, in a PBEM game, you have to keep a close eye on the SRA. An allied player can send his carriers to raid Palembang, Soerabaja and Batavia. So you need to keep your scout planes in place, submarines watching the route north from Perth and east from Ceylon, and large base forces at Palembang, Batavia and Seorabaja.

If the Allies do get through and destroy these, or if they can advance north from Darwin or set up B-29 bases in North Oz, the war is pretty much over for the Japanese.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

Fuel is not a problem for the Japanese. The biggest problem is having enough tankers to transport the fuel to where you want it while at the same time getting the oil delivered in a timely manner.

Dont need tankers to move fuel. Only need tankers to move oil.

Palembang is the single most important location economically on the map. As the Japs, I take it last (meaning after Java and Singapore), and bombard the snot out of it before I take it. That base and the ones on Borneo that are out of bomber range (those also I wait to take until Java falls) are good enough to drive Jap economy. Resources are a joke. Have way more than you need. Dont bother repairing anything in 4E bomber range. Isnt worth it, and you dont need it.

[Nikademus]

You might be right.....however all i can say is what i've already mentioned.....I have 3 dedicated TK convoys dedicated to Palembang alone and they cant keep up with it's production. It produces ALOT of oil points. While it's intact, OIL attacks on other bases will not seriously crimp Japan's style.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Dont need tankers to move fuel. Only need tankers to move oil.

I don't understand: how do you get fuel down to Rabaul and Kendari if not with tankers? If you refuel carriers or battleships down here during a battle you can quickly grow short of on-hand fuel.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Dont need tankers to move fuel. Only need tankers to move oil.

I don't understand: how do you get fuel down to Rabaul and Kendari if not with tankers? If you refuel carriers or battleships down here during a battle you can quickly grow short of on-hand fuel.

AKs can carry fuel. They cant carry oil, but they can carry fuel at a 1:2 ratio (ie a 7000 AK carries 3500 fuel). APs can carry fuel also, but thats at 1:3 (or is it 1:4?). Either way, I dont use APs, but when all my tankers are otherwise occupied, I use my AKs. I have plenty.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

AKs can carry fuel. They cant carry oil, but they can carry fuel at a 1:2 ratio (ie a 7000 AK carries 3500 fuel). APs can carry fuel also, but thats at 1:3

OK good point. This could be useful when there are a lot of spare AKs around in port but few TKs.

[1275psi]

I hate palembang -and all the rest[:@]

as a jap player capturing it - palembang it was a crater -nil, zip, nardo production of anything.
the other places were not much better.

cancel operations ? - whats an operation? got to grab every little morsel of fuel from every piss ant base , and get it all together in one place 1st

supplies -same deal -HI is and has been perilous all game.
spend a day every week - stopping production of this plane, starting that one for a week, juggling ship production as I can and as required

So hammering oil production does hurt -big time.

Ps -every damaged oil centre has cost a fortune in supplies to repair -and those supplies i would prefer to be building up in some bases.
remember its 20000 required to replace losses -if you ain't got em, even the process of moving a squadron back to a base to recieve new planes is a real pain.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

I hate palembang -and all the rest[:@]

as a jap player capturing it - palembang it was a crater -nil, zip, nardo production of anything.
the other places were not much better.

The number of enemy engineers determines if a base get blasted when you capture it. As long as you dont enter the hex, the allies cant stop the production, so the Dutchies are dutifully stacking the oil and resources for you as long as you dont enter the hex.

Take out Java before you take any of the major oil centers. You have ample oil to last 4-6 months without sending 1 drop home, so dont worry about speed of capture. Remember, the Dutch are stacking it for you.

Bombard an oil base for a minimum of 3 days before you attack it with a BB bombardment group. More is better. Use lots. Having a ton of arty in the hex also helps. The goal here is to disrupt allied engineer units. If they are disrupted, they dont blow things up.

Hope that helps.

Edit: dont be afraid to use an airplane or two either. More is better.

[Nikademus]

The biggest golden rule......have airgroups ready to defend the base from reprisal attacks after capture! [;)]

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The biggest golden rule......have airgroups ready to defend the base from reprisal attacks after capture! [;)]

Easier to just take out all the bases they could launch an attack from before you take it [;)]

[ChezDaJez]

Just how important is Production/Oil for you?

For me, extremely important and I am only at 1 July 1942. In my previous thread, I indicated that the SRA oil resources had been heavily damaged when captured and weren't repairing very well. On top of that, my opponent has been bombing the smaller fields in Burma and the fields near Amboina. He has put those out of commission but they are relatively small.

Below is a graphic that shows you just how dire my oil stocks are. I estimate I will be out of oil within 2 months and out of fuel about 6-9 months after that. The oil level is shown by the red line.

From a strategic standpoint, Japan can't survive without oil. It's pretty much game over within about a year of losing oil production.

Chez

[Yamato hugger]

Oh no doubt. If you allow the oil centers to be destroyed upon capture, then yes, you pretty much screwed. See my post above on how to take a base to minimize this.