Landings in non-base hexes

[ChezDaJez]

Its to land on a rail line and move.

And do you bring your own trains too? Not trying to be smartass but I would think you would at least need control of a city before you got rail movement bonus. I know its not modeled that way but it should be.

Chez

1 lousy second, Feinder, by one lousy second!

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Last time I checked, no amphibous landing in all of recorded history included locomotives...

They unloaded trains at Normandy. Not on D Day, but they brought them over the beaches.

Where did I say anything about train movement? You land on the rail lines to block the enemy from using it and then move to contact. I would have hoped you could have figured that out. I can get out paintprush and paint you a prettier picture if you need it to understand the concept of blocking an enemy retreat. Better still, I'll photocopy one of my old training manuals and you can argue with the US Army on the subject if you wish.

Forgive this but I fail to see why you have to utilize a childish outburst of intentional ignorance when you disagree with someone. You arent being cute, and you arent impressing anyone. Disagree. That's your right. You want to display childish behavior, I guess thats your right as well.

[8|]

[ChezDaJez]

Its to land on a rail line and move.

Where did I say anything about train movement?

Your first statement above gives the impression that's what you meant. Moving along a rail hex in the game gives you a rail movement bonus regardless of whether it's deserved or not. Just another of the ground movment faults in the game.

As far as Normandy goes, locomotives were not unloaded over the beach. Some were brought to France but only after a port had been secured and repaired many weeks later.

Feinder and I posted virtually the same thought simultaneously. Your reply was the only childish outburst noted. It was uncalled for. I would suggest that if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Chez

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
Moving along a rail hex in the game gives you a rail movement bonus regardless of whether it's deserved or not. Just another of the ground movment faults in the game.

Yes, and how many times (not counting von Ryans Express) have you heard of defending troops taking a train out of combat? It doesnt matter what speed you move in the game fast or slow. The point is surround and capture is as old of a concept as war itself.

Edit: The examples I cited range from battalion to ARMY sized units actual and planned landings away from enemy positions to avoid casulties and to block retreats. Hell, even Patton did it in Sicily. Andy said that his map doesnt allow landings in some areas where they wouldnt be able to. I personaly dont use Andys map because I prefer to play the "standard" game but I prefer his map. Dont have room for both on my machine or I would use it.

As far as Normandy goes, locomotives were not unloaded over the beach. Some were brought to France but only after a port had been secured and repaired many weeks later.

They brought trains in over the arificial harbor. Ive seen pictures. Looking for them now.

[invernomuto]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
2: the land combat movement rules are not good enough. By landing a bn unit behind the lines, and then the opponent can not move one unit to react to that is reason enough to not allow the "land 2 guys (or a bn) behind your lines and force your 100,000 army to surrender."

If you put an army of 100,000 in such a position their loss wouldnt be to "gameyness", it would be they would no longer want to fight for the person that put them in such a position [;)]

This forces one to account for this. If you only put 90,000 of them troops up front and left 10,000 back to defend against this, then you wouldnt have to worry about it, no?

There could be an easy solution for this problem (and for player retreat movements in general): a land unit can move from a contested hex to an enemy occupied hex BUT:

1) has great penalities (heavy disruption and fatigue)
2) Have to shock attack the enemy units in the destination hex (like river crossing rule).

If the shock attack fails, your unit surrenders and is eliminated from game.

Comments?

BYE!!!

[Halsey]

And how often did THAT really happen? ZERO![;)]

The Sicily end arounds were only done a couple of times, and those were tactical operations.
The Mulberry's at Normandy tooks months to build before towing them into position.

So you cite some European examples. Where did the Japanese do this in force?

As I said before, if you want to game the mechanics, go for it.[:D]

[Feinder]

[* sigh *]

YH, it's just a matter of "know they enemy".

If you want to land anywhere on the map, be my guest. It just won't be in a game against me.

-F-

[Graycompany]

I cant recall the exact place, but I think there was a landing which just off the beach was all swamp/marsh by the Americans in '43, I think it may have been either on New guinea, or the Island that Rabaul is on. It was for the most part unopposed, but was awful for the troops that did it. On a side note, can you bombard a non-base hex with ships?

[Feinder]

Bombard non-base hex - I -believe "nope".

I think I tried it in an early AI game, when IJA was advancing on Rangoon. I sent the RN off to bombard the place, and got 2x Torps into the side of Ramilles for my trouble.

(* Isn't it great to make mistakes vs. the AI? He's so forgiving! *)

-F-

[Graycompany]

LOL........... yep......... Reason I ask is that in malaya on a non-base hex I have trapped a number of allied units just north of mersing, and I keep trying to bombard, and the ships just go there and come back.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Halsey
So you cite some European examples. Where did the Japanese do this in force?

Where did the Japs do it in force?

I am looking at "The Times Atlas of the Second World War" and this is what I see:

on page 70: there is a rail line that runs from Songkhia to Khota Bharu that isnt on the stock map. The Japs landed at 2 places in what would be hex 25,44 on the stock map about half way between the 2.

on page 72: the Japs landed at Lamon Bay. Problem is Lamon Bay is hex 43,53 on the stock map, not 44,52 as labeled. Hex 44,52 would actually be Dingalan Bay. The Japs landed here specifically to cut off forces in Naga.

on page 73: a Bn of the Kawaguchi regt landed at 40,59 (half way between Zamboanga and Cotabato).

on page 74: landings 1 hex east of Batavia (stock map hex 20,60) .

also on page 74: landings halfway between Balikapapan and Banjarmasin (stock map hex 28,65).

All of those were regiment size or better except as noted. The first was 2 regiments, and the one on Java was either brigade or division sized. Where did the Japs land anywhere "in force" (depending on what your defination of "in force" is)?

By "in force" I assume you mean enough force to do the job they were sent to do, and I believe every one of those instances they landed with enough force to do the job.

Now not included in my list is serveral landings they made on the Bataan peninsula to surround enemy troops. I left these out for 2 reasons. 1) they didnt accomplish their mission, and 2) the hex is a base hex.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Bombard non-base hex - I -believe "nope".

I think I tried it in an early AI game, when IJA was advancing on Rangoon. I sent the RN off to bombard the place, and got 2x Torps into the side of Ramilles for my trouble.

(* Isn't it great to make mistakes vs. the AI? He's so forgiving! *)

-F-

Yes you can bombard a non-base hex. As long as there are enemy troops in it.

[Halsey]

Al I can say is, GO for it!

My advice to your current opponents, if they are reading this thread, is this.
Start sending squad sized suicide units by submarine to land on any RR/Supply lines that are in your occupied territories and home islands.

Do it in large numbers, and do it a lot.[:D][:D][:D]

[Twotribes]

He did say reasonable forces. A squad to block any sized unit in WiTP is NOT reasonable.

[TulliusDetritus]

There are two "worlds". Wargame world and real world.

In real world "landing in a non-base hex" or bizarre movements have existed. Always. Remember Hannibal and the Alps? History is just full of heterodox (and succesful) movements [;)]

[bradfordkay]

Quite correct, Tullius. In the real world a single squad landed on the highway 60 miles from a base a base will not cause a corps to surrender...

[TulliusDetritus]

Here you are wrong, many small contingents won battles. Especially in mountain warfare.

My point is: you can't say "this can't be done". There is no absolute truth. A military -or an amateur- says "no, this can't be done!". Does this mean it really can't be done? Many militaires proved this is false.

By the way, Pearl Harbor is per definition the most heterodox military movement [:D]

[Halsey]

We're not talking "REAL WORLD".
We're talking WITP game mechanics.[:D]

If an opponent lands a Div, Rgt or a BN to cut off anything larger than itself it's a BS move.
Bottom line![:D][;)]

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Al I can say is, GO for it!

My advice to your current opponents, if they are reading this thread, is this.
Start sending squad sized suicide units by submarine to land on any RR/Supply lines that are in your occupied territories and home islands.

Do it in large numbers, and do it a lot.[:D][:D][:D]

Actually I welcome this. One of my opponants is doing that very thing. You know why I like it? It keeps my supplies where I want them.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Quite correct, Tullius. In the real world a single squad landed on the highway 60 miles from a base a base will not cause a corps to surrender...

Really? Tell it to the division of Iraqies that surrendered to a medic in the first gulf war.

Edit: Ive heard sorties from WWII of Italians surredering enmasse to small units. Germans did it near the end. I knew a guy in the 106th that told me the first German he ever saw was with his company commander when the CO came to tell them they surrendered in the Battle of the Bulge.

3 things here. First of all where did I say land a squad? In ALL cases I said they had the force to do the job. Please show where I ever once said I land on a non-base hex with a squad.

Secondly, 1 squad will not cause a corps to surrender. SOMETHING must be attacking that corps to make it want to run away to begin with.

Lastly, all this does is forces you to cogitate the posibilities. To force you to keep reserves. Commit everything and you leave yourself open to disaster. If you keep forces spead out, you eliminate or at least greatly reduce your vunerability of falling victim to it. There arent too many places on the map that one can do this in the first place. If you arent savvy enough to see that and understand that and account for it in your defensive planning, then I feel sorry for you. You arent as good as you think you are.

You want a house rule, heres one: no landings with less than a full unit in enemy occupied terrain. Can a battalion cause a corps that is being forced to retreat to surrender? Sure it can.