List of WPO planes

[Tankerace]

Yes. By Ahistorical I meant that, the squadron had 6 planes and 5 pilots. There was no chance that it could get anymore for months. Perhaps ahistorical isn't the word. Unfeasible would be better. Yes, WPO is in itself ahistorical and hypothetical, but I am presenting it in a realistic way. That may make no sense, so let me clarify. It is ahistorical in the sense that never were designs are including, but it is not a historical in the since that I don't want to present situations that couldn't have happened.

In peace, this particular Sqdrn. had 6 planes, and 5 pilots. It was that way from 1924 until 1928 or later. Now, in a war footing, replacements for that squadron would be even less, as the U.S. attempted to put together a relief convoy for the PI. Still, I could make the max planes 6, and create the DT-2, with replacement rates of 1 or 2. The squadron could upgrade to SC-1s or T3Ms, and just ditch the DT to get back into the war. This would let Jorm have his DTs [:D] yet not totally skew plausible history.

[Jorm]

harrrr [:D]

no worries tanker
i can add this stuff in later my self if i get off my fat bum

just posted that last post for discuission
I agree with Bodhi there though
while VT20 may not have been supported at the time, the planes where there and i suspect on a war footing some extra pilots would have been found even ex WWI retreads.

also i an a werido and like all those little 'odds and sods' units that existed but you dont hear much about.

still, looking forward to this game very muhc and most of my posts about planes are really some thing for people to look at while we wait for its relase

[Tankerace]

That's quite OK. Adding in the plane is no trouble, since its the weekend I doubt anyone from Matrix has even started the gears turning yet. Just finished the art, and now Im adding VT-20 with them, as well as VT-2 (arriving in '23).

After this though, don't think I can add much more in, gots to get this out sometime [:D]

Truth be told, I've been considering adding it (The DTs) in for some time.

[Jorm]

<insert mighty cheer>



now did you get those Dutch planes in as well .. lol

[Tankerace]

Wow,I hate to break it to you, but this thing would be a flaming POS in COmbat. If this one sourcce is correct....14.5 minutes to get to 5,000 feet. With another source saying 10min to 3,850 feet, that's a climb rate of roughly 350ft/min, and a max altitude of 7,400 feet.

[Tankerace]

ORIGINAL: Jorm

<insert mighty cheer>



now did you get those Dutch planes in as well .. lol

Yerp.

[Slotermeyer]

No Douglas C-1 cargo/transport aircraft or any other transport aircraft?

For info on US air transport aircraft: http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/cargo/c1/c0.htm

_____________________________

The definitions under which we will try the Germans are general definitions. They impose liability upon war-making statesmen of all countries alike. If we can cultivate in the world the idea that aggressive war-making is the way to the prisoner's dock rather than the way to honors, we will have accomplished something toward making the peace more secure.
We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it. And we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war, for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy. -- US Chief Justice Jackson at Nuremberg trials

[Tankerace]

I thought about adding in some, but I came to the conclusion that all transport aircraft of the time couldn't carry troops (six passengers to a plane, it would take a year to move a regiment [:D]). I felt that the only viable mission they could do was supply transport, but given the limited availability of airfields available, I felt that this could be handled by the flyingboats.

On a more historical note however, only the Douglas C-1C was produced in limited (17) numbers in the time frame of WPO. With their relatively small payload, few planes, and no spares, they never would have been committed to combat.

[TSCofield]

I guess a question would have to be asked, "What would have really happened if war had broken out?" You are right, the aircraft and transports of the day were pretty primitive but then again, comparing 1940 to 1945 the aircraft seemed relatively primitive. There were only a handful of airframes present in 1940 that were viable (read viable here) combat aircraft in 1945. Most of those were considered brand new in 1940. The top of the line aircraft at the beginning of the war were either in second line service at the end of the war (Hurricaines, P-40s, etc) or were really close to the end of their productive period. Every single fighter and bomber at the beginning of the war was supplanted by at least one type that was superior in every way. If the war had gone on a year longer I suspect that almost all of the original front line aircraft would have been relegated to second line service. Only the desperate need of the Japanese and Germans kept aircraft like the Zeke and He111 in service. In Britain or the US these aircraft would have been scrapped or used as trainers after 1943.

I suspect that once the war started aircraft production would have sped up in earnest. You are right, the C1 would have been a very limited aircraft in 1925, but probably not in 1927. It could have been the impetus for a whole new range of aircraft production. I am not saying you need to make up aircraft but there were hundreds of designs from Boeing, Douglas, DeHavellin and such that would have been pushed through completion with war contracts. Aircraft looked upon as prototypes in the 1920's would have been pushed through to production.

Likewise I am not sure about the lack of carriers. Sure in 1924 there was probably not much impetus to create more 'modern' style fleet carriers but the fact that Japan, Britain and the US were even considering changing their battlecruisers over to carriers meant that there was some thought to such a thing. I cannot imagine that they wouldn't take a CL or CA and not convert it to a fast carrier. The scouting benefits alone would be worth the risk. I suspect the fleet carriers in the 1920s would have looked more like the Lexington and Kaga models, large with a fairly heavy surface defense package but I doubt the war would have progressed without any side considering converting more fast ships to carrier operations. Even if they didn't make carriers as strike ships they would have been invaluable as scouting ships.


Just my opinions here.

[Tankerace]

I do have aircraft procudion increasing in WPO, for fighters, bombers, flying boats, carrier planes, everything. My point about the C1 is with a light payload and 6 passenger capacity, the only use it would be (in combat) would be liason transport, or as an air ambulance (of which some C-1s were used). However, the game engine cannot handle this.

As to aircraft carriers, as far as I can tell For Japan, the Amagi/Tosa conversions were done only after the Washington Treaty cancelled their construction. Kaga and Tosa were very near completion (Tosa was already launched), and while it is debatable, it is my contention they would never have been converted to carriers, in view of the battleship admirals. Around 1918, there was some talk of converting one or more of the Lexingtons into aircraft carriers. However, it would seem to me (and again, this is my take) that if the Amagi's and Tosas were completed, then to match them the Lexingtons would be aswell.

Now, what I did find in my research is plans to convert fast merchants or liners into aircraft carriers, should war break out. There were such plans on both sides. The problem? Such ships as deemed "suitable" for conversion wouldn't come in to service until the late 1920s, and by the time they could be converted, WPO would be over.

Now, what I have done is given each side two additional carriers, based along these designs. However, I have made a concession, reducing a the aircraft capacity but giving a lsightly faster speed.

The total carriers in WPO: 4 Japanese, 3 American, 3 British. As to taking a CL or CA to a carrier, I thought about it too. But CAs, while lare enough, were too slow, and while they could keep pace with the battle line, they couldn't scout ahead (and Japan didn't posses any new CAs, only older ones that would be unsuitable). Light and Scout cruisers of the time, while fast enough, were to small and cramped. While they could launch and recover aircraft (as proved by The Pennsylvania, Birmingham, and Seattle), they would be too cramped to store aircraft, or at least any resonable compliment.

I weighed all of this very carefully. Of converted cruisers, the only effective means they could do is a Seattle style conversion with a light landing deck built over the after turret (but to fraile for "modern" aircraft, and mount a small (4-6) seaplane contingent. I do not believe, given the battleship mentality of the time (especially if we look at no Washington Treaty, and no reason to look away from the BB) that big gun admirals would justify such a conversion.

It is also my contention that the Lexingtons and such wouldn't be converted during a war, as such conversion have almost always been stopped for favor of new construction. So, the lighter, merchant carriers seemed in my eye to be the best way to go.

Now, if WPO was set in the 1930s, with faster cargo ships and liners, there would definately be more carriers. But in the 1920s, the bases for them didn't exist, and with no Washington Treaty, politically, the battleship admirals would have fought tooth and nail to keep their new toys from being turned in to "military experiments". Remeber, even in 1921, the aircraft was regarded as a harmless toy, and even Billy Mitchell sinking the Alabama and Ostfriesland didn't completely shake that foundation.

The other draw back to mass carriers for scouting is short range. The little carrier aircraft can usually go no more than 3 hexes, and the carriers themselves no faster than the battle line. Now since by the time they would come in to service the big dreadnoughts are all refitted with catapults and have squadrons of their own, and as to fleet protection, the Japanese get a squadron of Sopwith Pups or Gloster Sparrowharks which can fly off platforms on battleships, and the Americans get 4 squadrons of Battleship Fighters, Vought Fu-1s with floats that can fly off battleship catapults. In my eye, with all this, the need for several carriers would have been filled by the few conversions available.

These were just the conclusions I drew from the research I did, and why I had decided to abandon carrier conversions.